00;00;00;00 – 00;00;14;28
Unknown
If a man comes up to you and punches you in the face. Do I immediately go to the man and say, I’m so sorry you got angered that much? I’m so sorry. You’re you’re fucking laying on the ground in a bloody mass. And I’m like, I’ll get to you in a minute. But, you know, he’s really he’s in a bad place right now.
00;00;14;29 – 00;00;31;03
Unknown
He’s, he’s he got really angry. Right. We’d be appalled if that happened. Why was that so normalized in that situation?
00;00;31;05 – 00;00;53;18
Unknown
Hey, it’s me Erin, Thanks for joining us on the More Love podcast. Do not tell Rebecca, but this podcast is about empathy. She likes people to think she’s dead inside. But the truth is, she’s a big time feeler who has truly helped me uncover that empathy is my superpower. Here she comes. Hey, bestie. Hi, love. What are you doing?
00;00;53;19 – 00;01;29;20
Unknown
Oh, just getting ready to host a podcast. A podcast about what? Our life, our life is. Best friends who are more like sisters. Yay! I love us, and I can’t wait to share our stories with the world, especially the ones that involve us pushing each other right to be our most authentic selves. Oh, man. Okay. The podcast must have just aired saying that we weren’t doing this subscription service anymore because I had someone contact me and be like, no, oh, how come?
00;01;29;26 – 00;01;49;05
Unknown
And then followed quickly by a I really appreciate you guys knowing your boundaries and that you could do what you couldn’t do, right. Like, I can’t stop when you know what it’s like, mutual feelings that come with me of empathy so that I don’t even know what’s airing at what time anymore. Because we’re so far ahead on the podcast.
00;01;49;05 – 00;02;06;20
Unknown
But that one must have just aired because people will send me random messages and I’ll be like, why is he talking about this? For us, it was so long ago. One was, here’s a hint teabag your eye. And I’m like, what? What? What was that for? Okay, that was the time I had the stye in my eye that they thought was shingles.
00;02;06;27 – 00;02;35;17
Unknown
That’s funny. But like that completely out of context. I’m like, oh boy, that’s funny. You teabag your eyes. Yeah. Oh, snap me in. That’s funny. Oh my gosh. So I know you never check our email for our love podcast, but we got an email that is from this person. I’ll share your vara Kara vara. Okay. And it’s to both of us okay.
00;02;35;19 – 00;02;58;05
Unknown
And says I love the themes of empathy, connection and personal growth that you explore on your podcast. Thank you. Thank you. How? We don’t know. Also, that’s exciting. Someone that we don’t know. Listening to the podcast, I love that. Well she’s had it out over the last five years. She developed a really big interest in empathy as a vital role in mental health.
00;02;58;08 – 00;03;23;21
Unknown
And she wrote a book called The Little Book of Empathy, which is a pocket sized guide that redefines empathy as a powerful tool for healing, fostering understanding, and strengthening connections. Love that. So al was giving us a free copy O of my God, this is our first free gift. For free gift. We got we got to the borderline sponsor.
00;03;23;23 – 00;03;40;26
Unknown
We got a sponsor. We’ve got a we got a free gift. Love that right for our listeners. So I went on and got it. Here it is right here. I got to stop it. It’s so cute. It looks totally like our branding. I know the little pithy. So I had said to al, oh my God, thank you so much.
00;03;40;26 – 00;04;02;00
Unknown
We really appreciate this. Thanks for thinking of us. We’ll be sure to check it out and share our feedback on a future show. We appreciate you listening to the show and thanks for connecting. She said thanks so much, Rebecca. You’re so welcome, al. You’re so. Let me see that. That’s the doorbell. No email. No nothing. I know, I mean, you just you just love the that they all said.
00;04;02;02 – 00;04;28;19
Unknown
Thanks so much. That’s adorable. Alejandro. Alejandro al for short. So this is really cute. And it’s this cute little book. It’s. You can get it for free on Amazon. It’s like this free little e-book that you can get and, stop it with this branding. It’s adorable. So just read one random page in there cleansing tears. It is okay to let your tears flow.
00;04;28;22 – 00;04;49;03
Unknown
Crying can be a healing process that cleanses both your soul and body. When you cry, your body releases chemicals that act as a natural relief. Relief helping you feel better. Don’t suppress your tears when you feel the need to cry. Tip allow yourself to cry when you need to. It’s a healthy way to express your feelings and facilitate healing.
00;04;49;05 – 00;05;10;04
Unknown
Two there’s like one there, like the definition of empathy. Where does it come from? Then there’s like little tips and tricks. I think there’s a couple. It’s a little bit of a workbook. Two it’s just pocket size. Yeah, just really fun size. It’s fun size. Empathy isn’t a cliche hallmark statement or sentiment strip. What’s it say on the back?
00;05;10;04 – 00;05;32;18
Unknown
There? That’s. Yeah. Like the backpack. It says kindness, connection and understanding placed by the. Yeah. It talks a little bit about empathy for your children. And when you’re giving them a hug, how that’s the truest form. There’s a quote from Brené Brown right in here. Freaking love. Brené Brown. Empathy is I’m here to feel with you. Sympathy is I’m sorry to hear what you’re going through.
00;05;32;18 – 00;05;58;15
Unknown
Compassion is I see what you are going through, and I want to do something to help you. Empathy does not require you to compromise your well-being to help those who cause you harm. It’s about understanding, not shouldering unnecessary burdens. It means protecting your inner peace by setting healthy boundaries, taking care of yourself while managing difficult relationships with understanding and ensuring your emotional well-being remains intact.
00;05;58;17 – 00;06;24;15
Unknown
Always remember that self-care is not an act of selfishness. Rather, it is an essential expression of love and respect for yourself. Nice. It’s really sweet. So I wanted to show that here today. We will put that up on the We Love page on our website. Let me pull want to go and just get their free e-book. And thank you all for contacting us, sharing it and then giving Rebecca credit for responding when that 100% didn’t happen.
00;06;24;16 – 00;06;46;05
Unknown
That’s totally. So what kind of hippie will you got for us today? Today is the King of Cups, and I’m pretty sure we’ve had this before because it’s the whale I love with the red solo beer. The beer pong cup. Yeah. So the whale’s cool. The King of Cups is basically a black belt of emotional mastery, and he’d be more happy to take you under his instructive wing.
00;06;46;05 – 00;07;13;12
Unknown
Hire him as your personal Zen master, and let him show you how to feel your feelings with maturity, stability, and care for others. Honestly, it might be more annoying to be around someone that’s perfect, but you can’t stop visualizing your face. It’s just when you said being around someone that’s perfect, right? Thank you. It might have, might might get annoying to be around someone this perfect, but see if you can take a page from his book and run with it.
00;07;13;12 – 00;07;38;07
Unknown
This sort of balance will come in handy the next time you need to go to the DMV. So funny. That’s cute. I’m going to start us. So the video today. Well, really, Scott is can I found this video in. I cannot stop following this kid. Nice to cram. Okay. I love him so much. It’s his delivery. It’s his little voice.
00;07;38;14 – 00;08;00;25
Unknown
This is. He has got to be. I don’t know, like, little or like a teenager. 5 or 6. He’s little. Yeah, okay. He’s this little guy. But as a segue into what we’re going to talk about today, I’m going to start you with this adorable video. I love it quite that much. Yes. Thank you, Mr. President. I need your permission.
00;08;00;27 – 00;08;35;17
Unknown
Oh, well, daddy, we’re the size of a mountain. Okay, buddy. Huge panda bear. No! Panda! Oh, my God, there is no model here, daddy. He doesn’t know. And he doesn’t know what tiny good egg you do here. Does he need to do this work when I go? Can I not be nice? Oh, yeah. And how do you get to the gym without each other?
00;08;35;19 – 00;09;07;15
Unknown
Don’t know. Why not. Then he drives me over there to lift the white. I’m gonna go the gym. The model for you, Waco. Sounds like. Sounds like my house. Little Scottish lab. Tomorrow, before you wake up, you go. You’re right. Stop it. He has all these little videos where he’s, like, talking to his sister, and he’s talking to his mom, and like, he just gives this advice and I can’t with the accent.
00;09;07;15 – 00;09;28;15
Unknown
Oh, sweet little. I know you’re right, Scott. He’s probably like 4 or 5. He’s he’s a little little. He’s a little guy. Oh so I watched that and I thought God that that’s so interesting that this, this little dude, right, is like, feel my muscles, feel how big my muscles are. They’re bigger than my dad’s, right? They’re they’re mountains.
00;09;28;19 – 00;09;49;13
Unknown
They’re they’re all these things. And then of course, I can’t just take that at face value. I start to think about all the different stereotypes and social pressures that we put on men. And then I see on TV this episode of it was like Judge Judy, but it’s a different woman who’s doing it. I should judge, okay? Right.
00;09;49;16 – 00;10;27;14
Unknown
And it’s a paternity test show judgment thing, like, again, like Judge Judy, but it’s a paternity one, okay? And this man is on the one side and believes that he is the father of this child. The mother has told him he is the father of this child. But somewhere along the way, he’s been given some reason to believe that he might not be the father of this child.
00;10;27;14 – 00;10;56;04
Unknown
And so he is now bringing her to court, even though he does not want to. He wants to remain in a relationship with her, and he wants to continue to be the father of this child, but understandably wants to know for sure if he is the father. So you have this man on the one side and you have the woman on the other side, and she’s saying unequivocally, he is the father of this child.
00;10;56;06 – 00;11;29;07
Unknown
So she reads that the judge reads the results and he is not the father. And this woman collapses on to the floor, is crying, is absolutely beside herself. She’s screaming, no, no, no, that can’t be true. Right? These people start coming to the aid of this woman. They’re bending down. They’re like getting on her level. They’re like, it’s going to be all right.
00;11;29;09 – 00;12;01;00
Unknown
It’s going to be okay. And they pan the camera over to this man. And this man is standing here looking off into space, incredibly distraught because he just found out that this child that he loves so much is not his child. And I have this moment where I all I think is no one is comforting that man right now.
00;12;01;02 – 00;12;33;12
Unknown
Now one person. Yeah. Why it went over because he’s not making a scene, man. Oh, and comforted him. Supported him. The judge is, you know, commenting on this woman and saying like, miss So-and-so, you know, we now have an answer. It’s okay. You know, she she’s spending all this time talking to this woman and then eventually comes around to the man and says, Mr. So-and-so, I bet this is so terrible for you to hear.
00;12;33;12 – 00;13;02;05
Unknown
How are you feeling? And he just stands there, shocked and absolutely distraught. And it’s in this moment that I came up with the topic of this show, which is essentially, are we are we doing man a disservice and are we misunderstanding men? And have we been unfair to men? Wow. This. I don’t think that I think this has anything to do with genders.
00;13;02;05 – 00;13;34;22
Unknown
That specific scene, she’s just in fact, an out of control crazy. Your focus is on her. No, I’m not focused. No, that’s why the people were focused on her. Cause she was acting crazy. People should have said, well, you were ho. And that exposed. So you’re an idiot, that you’re. You’re. That’s actually I agree, I well, there’s a surprise why I’m surprised that there that they were doing that like they should have went to him and been like even if he wasn’t freaking out, been like, dude, I’m in theory.
00;13;34;24 – 00;13;59;13
Unknown
Yeah. Like, holy crap, she a liar. Yeah, yeah. But she’s this feels so much bigger to me than that. This is not the only example that we have of times where we are not tending to the emotional needs of men because they’re either not showing their emotional needs, they’re faking and hiding their emotional needs, or we’re just assuming that they’re completely fine.
00;13;59;16 – 00;14;20;08
Unknown
Yeah. Good point. And that comes down to whether or not we take them seriously about if they need to go to the doctor. It comes down seriously when we talk about the man called, it comes down when we talk about what’s the man called. Every single time a man gets a cold it’s almost like he lost his right arm.
00;14;20;10 – 00;14;57;07
Unknown
Oh gotcha. Yeah, yeah. It comes down to something I experienced on Father’s Day where the tons and tons of posts on Mother’s Day. Not not about definitely about mothers. Right. But specifically about subgroups of mothers. So mothers who have lost a child, mothers who have strained relationships with their own mothers, mothers who have had rainbow babies, mothers who write like all these different, like listen lists and lists of the different types of mom that exist.
00;14;57;07 – 00;15;18;27
Unknown
Happy Mother’s Day, not just to your, you know, moms that you expect to be supporting on Mother’s Day, but let’s make sure moms of fur babies, right? Let’s make sure that we’ve encompassed all sorts of other types of moms when Father’s Day comes, and I do see the Happy Father’s Day to my father, happy Father’s Day to my father in law.
00;15;19;00 – 00;15;47;04
Unknown
Happy Father’s Day to right. But what I don’t see is Happy Father’s Day to the fathers who. Why or girlfriends left them. Happy Father’s Day to men who are only, who are fathers to fur babies happy Fathers Day to men who have lost a baby. Right? I saw none of that. Well, my guess is because it’s your algorithm.
00;15;47;04 – 00;16;12;20
Unknown
You’re in mom’s. You’re in tons of moms face groups, Facebook groups. See everything in your algorithm as mom focused. Everything in my algorithm is dad focused. I’m. I work for a dads group. I see that shit all the time. So on Father’s Day you were seeing. Oh, I, I don’t know, but I see tremendous things. Fathers related. I’d have to go back and I didn’t hyper focus on that.
00;16;12;20 – 00;16;35;27
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, I, I do that stuff a lot. What it is you’re seeing about fathers, what you’re seeing about men, what you’re seeing about right now specifically for me in algorithm, it’s always leadership. Yeah. And where the leader in your family, you’re the leader. Yeah, it’s definitely not. Well, I’m not going to say it’s not emotional focus because.
00;16;35;27 – 00;17;08;12
Unknown
Because it is. But it’s it’s different. But I think that. The algorithms of these types of things are really kind of sad because it’s forcing you into your interest. It’s not exposing you to other puts you in the rabbit hole. Yes, yes, fair. And that’s true of all algorithms. But I’m curious if that content exists and it’s not just being shown to me if it exists far, far, far less than it exists for women.
00;17;08;14 – 00;17;53;07
Unknown
Yeah, they’re not theirs. Right. So my my overall feel on this is it really got me thinking about if we’re doing a disservice to men or if we really are being unfair to men when we’re like, you’re a really shitty provider for your family. And then we are angry that the man doesn’t have emotional capacity to be able to manage certain things when I see it even young, with my own son, who I really like to think I’m trying my best to raise in an emotionally supportive environment, and how that’s gets beat out of him every time he goes, plays a football game up the street, and every time that he, you know, wants to
00;17;53;07 – 00;18;15;27
Unknown
have a moment where he will, will be walking into the grocery store, right. And I’ll grab his arm and you can tell he’s completely comfortable with that because he likes showing those types of expressions of connection with me. But he’s hyper aware of the fact that he’s a nine year old kid in the Wegmans parking lot. Right? Whereas little area up the street, she’ll hold on to me.
00;18;15;27 – 00;18;47;29
Unknown
It’ll hold onto my arm will be, you know, she zero concerns about showing expression of love and care and comfort and those types of things. Right. I even notice I have a reaction to myself and the feelings that come up for me when I talk about unfairness to men. Right? In what way? I feel like I immediately want to combat that with don’t hear me say, men are saints and wonderful and great at everything, and we’ve just been giving them an unfair shake right?
00;18;47;29 – 00;19;28;08
Unknown
I immediately have this reaction that’s like I hate, I hate myself. Qualities of men pretty well. Right. Like there’s, there’s some things. But I really wanted to make space in this conversation to entertain what may be us unfairly setting men up in environments, in situations where they can’t be appropriately supportive or haven’t been appropriately supported. And then instead of giving them the space to get there, we just dog on them all the time.
00;19;28;10 – 00;19;50;04
Unknown
And as soon as I say that, I’m immediately thinking of the man called and I’m like, it’s frickin annoying and not okay, and you probably should get that shit and Jack, right? But I really don’t want to go there. I really want to make the space for. Have we? Not done a service to men over the last however many years.
00;19;50;06 – 00;20;20;06
Unknown
What do you mean? We like. Who’s we talking about? Society. Society? Women, mothers. I mean, it’s mothers. Everything you’re describing is. Is. It’s so big. And it goes back. So far, I’ve noticed that there is a trend that’s been beginning for a while. That’s kind of it’s going to take a while to get there. But it ticked off the whole, the man card thing.
00;20;20;06 – 00;20;40;03
Unknown
Oh, God, I got to take away your man card. That’s, that’s been that goes back I mean think about I’m not a big sports guy. I don’t, I don’t watch football. Like I watched the end of the bills game yesterday and I enjoyed it. But I don’t seek out football. I don’t seek out sports. It’s just not what I do.
00;20;40;08 – 00;21;01;28
Unknown
I would rather watch a movie that I’ve seen a hundred times. Then then watch a sports game. Sometimes I’m into it. I’m like, I’m going to watch football today because that’s what I feel like doing. That’s my husband. My husband’s not into that either, but he’ll like he watched football yesterday partly because it’s new and then it’ll be over with me I like watching I like watching a football game.
00;21;02;01 – 00;21;20;25
Unknown
Just because I like the sport of football to a certain extent. But but are you saying that society says you’re not a man if you don’t like football or sports? If you’re not, if you’re a dude and you’re not completely absorbed in sports for ten months out of the year, you’re you’re less of a mess of a man.
00;21;20;28 – 00;21;43;20
Unknown
And I’ve noticed that that’s, that’s kind of decreasing. It was way worse when I was in my 20s. Now it’s, it’s a little bit less and I think and it could just be my own perception of me not giving a shit what, what people think because I am very much secure in my manhood. I know exactly who I am, I know exactly what I like, and I know the kind of person I am.
00;21;43;22 – 00;22;01;12
Unknown
There was a time where I wasn’t where I was very insecure and, you know, I still have my own insecurities as we all do, but that, that growing up with that and I come from, you know, I don’t want to say that, that I come from a real alpha male type of family because it’s not that bad.
00;22;01;14 – 00;22;28;19
Unknown
But my, my father and my older brothers fit into that category of sport. You know, all about football, all about going fishing, all about, you know, all this kind of stuff like romance stuff. You know, they got their boats and they got the campers. And I want those two so hot. I want those toys to. I just can’t fucking affordable unlike them.
00;22;28;21 – 00;22;50;13
Unknown
I would love to have that stuff, but but that’s kind of all wrapped up in that that man identity. Where me I was I was more into tech. I was more, you know, like you call a dude, hey, can you come over and help me frame out this wall and hang some drywall or, can you come?
00;22;50;13 – 00;23;12;02
Unknown
Can you come here? Come fix my computer? I do tutors tattoo. You know, it’s not a guy coming up to you being like you want to talk about it? Not hot, not hot. No, no, no. Hey, are you saying that that literally. It’s not hot? Are you saying. I’m saying that’s. To me. That’s not hot. It what she means when she says not hot is it makes her highly uncomfortable.
00;23;12;02 – 00;23;35;13
Unknown
But it’s the one thing she seeks more than anything in the world, in any type of romantic relationship, in any certain capacity. That level in. That’s what she really means. So certain capacities, if it’s all the time now, what, you don’t want to talk about it all the time. You you do not movie bedazzled and Frazier and, Elizabeth Hurley check out check out that movie.
00;23;35;13 – 00;23;56;11
Unknown
It’s so quick. Basically, Elizabeth Hurley is the devil, right? And Brendan Fraser is a guy who makes a deal with the devil and wishes for things. And whenever she grants the wish, it’s always to the extreme of whatever the wish is like. It’s like I want to be. I want to be a man’s man. And then he becomes like this ridiculous.
00;23;56;11 – 00;24;16;01
Unknown
Like it’s just funny. There’s always a twist at the end of each one of these, these wishes, okay? And he’s like, I want to be, sensitive and get it. And so the character that she creates for him is like, he’s like, ridiculous. He’s sitting on the on the beach, and he can’t stop crying because of the sunset.
00;24;16;02 – 00;24;35;09
Unknown
Yeah, no kids stuff. And he’s possessed. And so it’s like the extreme, you know, everybody wants that person who is checks all the boxes and nobody checks all the boxes. But there has to be a balance. Of course, of course, I think. I think maybe what you’re trying to hint at is how can we have more? Not you.
00;24;35;12 – 00;25;05;25
Unknown
Scott, you, Erin, how can we have more of a balanced, experience in all humans? Maybe. No. I see where the two of you and your your rants could get there. But what? I mean, what I’m trying to say is, Oh, I thought I was contributing to the conversation. I don’t think it’s a rant. I don’t think that we have.
00;25;05;28 – 00;25;34;01
Unknown
I don’t think we’re creating enough space to really understand the experience of men for who men are. I think we are very quick to, again, in that situation of the the judge situation, we’re just immediately going to assume, all right, well, that that dad, you know, doesn’t need any support or doesn’t need to be checked in on or whatever, because he seems to be all right.
00;25;34;01 – 00;25;56;27
Unknown
And. Yeah, well, good for you, man. Now you don’t have to pay child support, right. Like we go immediately there. Where’s the part of us that’s like, this man just found out that that child is not his. I don’t know why you’re assuming that. That’s where everybody went, because nobody came over to him. Everyone in this show immediately tended to this woman for ridiculous amounts of time because she was acting crazy.
00;25;56;27 – 00;26;19;26
Unknown
I don’t care what she was doing. It doesn’t matter to me what she’s doing. We’ve we’ve, in that case, tended to the woman, and we’ve tended to the fact that she’s throwing a fit on the floor or whatever the hell she is doing. She caused harm to this individual, and we didn’t look at the person who was harmed.
00;26;20;01 – 00;26;35;11
Unknown
We went immediately in that case, to the person who caused the harm. In what other scenarios do we do that if a man comes up to you and punches you in the face, do I immediately go to the man and say, I’m so sorry you got angered that much? I’m so sorry. You’re you’re fucking laying on the ground in a bloody mess.
00;26;35;11 – 00;26;57;10
Unknown
And I’m like, I’ll get to you in a minute. But, you know, he’s really he’s in a bad place right now. He’s, he’s he got really angry. Right. We’d be appalled if that happened. Why was that so normalized in that situation? It felt very normal. It feel completely normal that in this situation, this man needs to stand there and tend to it himself, because we had to just make sure that this woman was okay.
00;26;57;10 – 00;27;19;04
Unknown
First, I feel like we’re playing role reversal. And here’s my question. Where the people who who were tending to her, her family members that I know that were it was the, it was the judge. It was the who’s the guy? The guy in the the bail, the bailiff, the bailiff. Right. Okay. And it was, there was somebody else.
00;27;19;06 – 00;27;43;28
Unknown
Maybe that person was a family member, but it was. And then like the the people that were like that were sitting in the audience that were like, oh, not for him. For her. Oh my God, it’s so sad. She just found out that he is not the father. And I’m having this reaction where I’m like, and you know for sure that the faces on the audience members were for her, not for him.
00;27;44;01 – 00;28;11;03
Unknown
They only showed they only carried in on her in these people were literally like leaning over the, the, the bar thing. That’s how they cut it together. That’s how they want you. True. I mean, again, TV’s a terrible yeah, it’s a terrible let’s talk about real life that that and I don’t mean to belittle what you’re saying, but I take anything from TV with a grain of salt because it’s it’s it’s shot from a point of view.
00;28;11;03 – 00;28;29;14
Unknown
It’s one person’s point of view is that, you know, I know what they want to introducer wanted to say that like, let’s let’s make everybody look like they’re going to I mean, could be right. We don’t we don’t know. But if it was live. But I’m confused. I’m really confused. No one tended to this man that they showed on TV.
00;28;29;15 – 00;28;44;29
Unknown
We don’t know that to be true. They can cut things together like you would not believe. I’m telling you. And those people bending over might have actually been bending like I don’t. I have a lot of questions. That’s what I mean. I feel like we’re in a role reversal because I have a lot of questions. I do not take any of that for face value.
00;28;45;02 – 00;29;06;24
Unknown
None of it. Okay, I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m not either. But because I didn’t see it, I’ve questioned it’s very possible that because immediately my stomach when when you told the story, I wanted to hug the man. I’m like, oh my God, that’s horrible. That’s what I mean. Because he saw he and then she’s she’s causing a scene because she got caught.
00;29;06;26 – 00;29;29;28
Unknown
Do you think that’s what people’s reaction would be out in real life? Yeah, they’d go over to the man. I don’t know if they would physically go over to him, but I think that they would absolutely have empathy and if she’s still terrible and she’s crying and shit, it’d be like, yeah, that’s right. Well, you deserve it. You you caused this.
00;29;29;28 – 00;29;54;28
Unknown
Don’t feel bad for you at all, bitch. Yeah, that’s how I felt. Yeah, that’s how I felt. That isn’t what was portrayed so. Right. I don’t want to get caught in the details of what was portrayed. It, what I what I’m trying to say is, I don’t think we make enough space for men to be able to have the emotions that they need to have, and for us to be able to tend to what it is they’re going through, because we constantly push it off.
00;29;54;28 – 00;30;15;14
Unknown
Absolutely. So if my husband is going to say that he has a cold, I’m immediately going to here we go. You know, cancel all the plans. Man. Can’t come out of the room for 48 hours because he’s got the sniffles, right? I’m not making any space for the fact that he’s having a reaction to the fact that he doesn’t feel well, he actually has to be real.
00;30;15;14 – 00;30;35;01
Unknown
Hella not feeling well in order for him to get attention from me. Right? Maybe a trained response on his part. Right. To be fair. Right. The other example I’m talking about is if he gets physically injured, right, I’m more apt to be like, come on, you hit your head on the door. But is that because it’s your husband?
00;30;35;01 – 00;30;58;21
Unknown
I don’t think you have that reaction to men as a community. No, but it’s like a blanket. I don’t think you feel that way about. I think that’s just your personal experience with him in particular. Philip had a cold. He he was he was like, I was like, oh, my sinuses are really, really bad. I wouldn’t be like, I’m really sorry about that.
00;30;58;21 – 00;31;20;05
Unknown
Philip. Is there anything I can do, you know, to help you or take anything off your plane? I’d be like, oh, sinus or bad. Sorry about your freaking sinuses. You sound like so far, you know, let me tell you what I’ve been through in the like. It’s it’s that it’s the like nothing you can do is ever going to make up for the fact that I feel whatever.
00;31;20;05 – 00;31;58;03
Unknown
Right. It’s so it’s like in that situation with the with the guy who found out the kid wasn’t has. It’s like, oh, that’s really bad. I feel really sad about that. And I’m sorry that that happened to you. But you know how many frickin deadbeat dad there are in this world and moms that have to make up for it, it’s that it’s like this interesting imbalance that that comes about that I think part of us not making space for men in their feelings is because there’s been injuries from men for so long, and it’s very hard to make the space to open up the door, to be kind and compassionate and caring to these men
00;31;58;03 – 00;32;18;12
Unknown
when there has been harm done in some in some way. Right. But I think that that is harder on men than it is on, on women. I think we’re more apt to be like if if you are struggling with something or you’re not feeling well, I’m immediately like, oh, she’s real down and out because she doesn’t complain about anything, right?
00;32;18;15 – 00;32;36;25
Unknown
And then I’m coming over and I’m trying to fix that situation for you. Or you need childcare for some reason, right? I might be like to the man, I might be like, oh, sorry, is your life interrupted because you actually have to watch your frickin children? Whereas for you, I’m like, you need to go get your hair done.
00;32;36;25 – 00;32;56;26
Unknown
Absolutely. Why don’t you take a minute to yourself? I’ll watch the kids. So, you know, you’re the you’re the psychologist in the group or whatever, but you’re the professional. You’re the you’re the doctor. But just, fly on the wall. Sounds like you got a chip on your shoulder about something like it sounds like you’ve been mistreated, and.
00;32;56;26 – 00;33;21;09
Unknown
And so now you’re returning that, like, that’s how you see it. I think society as a whole is doing that to men. And I have some concerns about that. A when I, when I first got married, up until about last week now, the suck it up Sally was the quote that, she used to like to say the most.
00;33;21;11 – 00;33;46;17
Unknown
And, it was always suck it up. It was always suck it up. And there was no, there was no quarter for me to actually have a legitimate problem that needed to be dealt with. It was always like, you know, be a man. Suck it up. You can get through this big deal. Like, oh, you’re depressed.
00;33;46;19 – 00;34;15;11
Unknown
Suck it up. Deal with it. People have problems. I think that’s common. And I agree that is that is common. And it took it took many years of us growing apart and then realizing that we didn’t like the fact that we were growing apart and Kelly deciding that she was part of the problem and realizing where she comes from and realizing that her dad is just like that, the strong, silent type that he could, you know, you could cut off, part his arm and be like, no, I’m fine.
00;34;15;13 – 00;34;35;02
Unknown
You know? It’s like, no, you cannot. It’s okay for you to not be fine and it’s okay for you to ask for help. But. And if she had made space for that, instead of saying, suck it up, Sally. Right, right. She’s not making space for that one because of generational experiences, too. She might have that same chip on her shoulder that I think a lot of women do.
00;34;35;06 – 00;34;58;25
Unknown
Right? Three I do think that there’s this fear that’s like, if I if I do allow you space to express your depression to me, I’m a little nervous about maybe that won’t be hot anymore. Maybe that won’t be like a feeling I know how to handle anymore. So as long as I just shove it away and push it down, then I don’t have to deal with the fact that you might become, you know, a little too safe from me.
00;34;58;25 – 00;35;17;19
Unknown
And then I’m not going to see you in the same way, and then we’re going to have an issue. Right. And, and a lot of it comes from the sort of like you mentioned, multi-generational, the idea of being mothered by your wife, by your, your wife taking care of you like a mother would take care of a son.
00;35;17;21 – 00;35;40;09
Unknown
And that’s where the line gets real weird, because you don’t want to do that. You don’t you don’t want to have that maternal instinct with your with your spouse. Because it just it’s weird you know. And so drawing that line is, is really difficult. But it’s all, it’s all it’s all in your head. It’s all just like head garbage from both perspective from both.
00;35;40;09 – 00;35;56;05
Unknown
So you know women will say I don’t want a mother. My husband, but then take great pride in making, has lunch every day and want to make sure that he’s taken care of. And I’ve given you what you need for the day, and I’ve packed you a healthy line. I’m using that as an example. That’s just one of many, right?
00;35;56;12 – 00;36;16;22
Unknown
Because I’m also doing that for my kid. And then men, I think tend to be quick to allow that to happen because they’re like, well, great. I love the feeling of feeling cared for, and I feel like I have a lot on my plate, and that’s one less thing that I have to do, right where that becomes imbalanced in a lot of time.
00;36;16;22 – 00;36;34;10
Unknown
And I think this is where some of that resentment chip on the shoulder or whatever comes in that doesn’t allow us to have that space for men is when I’m making your lunch and doing 17 other things during the day. I’m taking care of the kids. I’m taking care of the finances. I’m making sure that our vacations are all taken care of.
00;36;34;10 – 00;36;53;20
Unknown
I’m making sure that your family’s Christmas presents are being purchased, right? All of these things that need to happen. Then the tables start to get turned. And now I have a whole lot less compassion for the fact that you have a sinus problem or a man called brain. Is there is there a lack of appreciation for those things that you do for the family?
00;36;53;23 – 00;37;22;00
Unknown
Is that the root of it? Like you don’t feel appreciated, you don’t feel like you’re given any kind of thanks? Or would you say appreciation and acknowledgment are the same thing again? When I say no, when I say acknowledge something without appreciating it. But for me, they come hand in hand with my acknowledgment. I also show appreciation because I understand I was a stay at home dad for quite a few years with three kids in diapers.
00;37;22;03 – 00;37;42;25
Unknown
So I know what it’s like when when mothers talk about, you know, I’m like staying home mom or being a house housewife or whatever, that’s the hardest job in the world. I’ve been there. I’ve done that where my wife was the breadwinner and I had to deal with everything. I went grocery shopping, I did the cooking, I did everything around the house as well.
00;37;42;25 – 00;38;06;11
Unknown
Plus took the kids to there to school, took him to the doctor, took him to the dentist. I was 100% in their lives and she was not. And so I, I’ve been there, I know what it’s like. So having been on both sides then I’m like when, when I tell Kelly all the time like you are because she, she is the toughest son of a bitch I’ve ever met.
00;38;06;14 – 00;38;25;18
Unknown
She just had knee surgery last Friday. She’s back to work today. And and she’s like but here’s the thing. She’s kind of like her father. So she’s like I can, I can, I can I’m fine, I’m fine. I’m like it’s okay to be not fine. Because what are you going to do. You’re weren’t you walking on your, on your knee.
00;38;25;18 – 00;38;47;14
Unknown
That’s not healed yet. You’re going to make it worse. And where is that for the rest of us. She holds the family together. I freely admit that she does everything. If she’s not able to do that then we’re nowhere because I can’t, I can’t pay the bills with this business. I pay the business bills and buy groceries.
00;38;47;14 – 00;39;25;26
Unknown
That’s it. Yeah. That’s my contribution to the family. I mean besides other stuff. But financially do you think acknowledgment and appreciation are the same. No. For me they are because words of affirmation is my love language. But acknowledging that I’ve done something doesn’t mean anybody cares. About you values it right to same same with me. Like Philip will say, our house outside our outside of the home, the yard and stuff would not look like this if I didn’t do it.
00;39;26;02 – 00;39;51;12
Unknown
I’m like, you’re right. I’m acknowledging that. Do I appreciate it? Not really. I could care less. Really? Right. Because in my mind, there are more priorities that need to happen that don’t or that are half assed or get overlooked because he spends his time doing that because that’s his priority. So, you know, I acknowledge that you do it.
00;39;51;12 – 00;40;13;10
Unknown
Thank you. But we don’t need it. It’s not necessary. In my mind. You know, my my in-laws live on our block. They live four houses down. And, trust me, when my yard starts to look bad. Although I’ll let you know I hear about it. Sure, sure. My mother in law and me, like. But again, this is this is generational stuff, right?
00;40;13;13 – 00;40;31;26
Unknown
Right, right. Or that’s the question. That’s really a statement. Yeah. You know, I’ve been working 80 hours this week. Sure. Let me let me mow the lawn. There you go tonight. There you go. Clock. Right. And that’s how I feel. Right. The priorities. And it’s it’s a tough thing to navigate and it depends on where you’re for me I always comes back to values.
00;40;32;03 – 00;41;15;11
Unknown
Where are your values rooted. How aligned are you on your values. And have you defined your roles in your family? I value my garden. Great. No, I don’t. Interesting. And we have to weed it. Then we don’t value it anymore. I don’t think that if anyone, I don’t think anyone ever comes close to acknowledging my level of contribution, because I don’t think anyone understands it to the depth that I feel it.
00;41;15;14 – 00;41;50;11
Unknown
And so everything always just feels superficial. Which part? The the acknowledgment. Oh yeah. Okay. So I don’t care about the appreciation. The appreciation usually comes off as fake to me. Okay. The acknowledgment I don’t think ever really feels like a true acknowledgment, because I don’t think that it is seen at the depths at which it feels to me like I’ve contributed, if that makes sense.
00;41;50;11 – 00;42;12;04
Unknown
What would it take? I would think Philip would agree with you. Very much so. And he and I are similar in a lot of ways and yes, in this capacity. But I also feel that way from my lens. Because he’ll say to me every day, he’ll say to me, could you just do something around here?
00;42;12;06 – 00;42;34;24
Unknown
And I just look at him and I’m like, are you for real? He’s like, I just need your help. And I think to myself, you motherfucker. Right. What, what, you need me to hold your hand while you’re fucking lawn mowing. Like what. What do you need from me. Right, right, right. And what are you not seeing that I am doing to to keep it right.
00;42;34;24 – 00;42;50;10
Unknown
And that’s what then he’ll say. And so when I say that, he’s like, well, well I didn’t, I didn’t say, you don’t do anything, I just need your help because these things haven’t gotten done. I’m like, yeah, those are the things that the end of the list that I didn’t have time for today, and they’ll happen at another time.
00;42;50;15 – 00;43;09;05
Unknown
But here’s the long list of things that I did do. Tell me what you would have wanted me to have taken off the list. And he’ll say nothing gets taken off the list. It all needs to get done. And I’ll say, yeah, possible. That’s not how it works. How long you been married? Almost 20 years. Really. So it’s a and this is this is a daily conversation.
00;43;09;12 – 00;43;30;22
Unknown
Nothing changes. Nothing. It is. You got to go to counseling. Yeah. Very aware. How does that does that impact your ability to then have compassion for him when he gets upset that he lost, you know, no. Because none of it’s connected. It’s not connected. What is what does that mean? None of that is connected. None of that.
00;43;30;22 – 00;43;53;26
Unknown
I don’t hold grudges. I’m not a resentful person. When we have that conversation, the conversation happens and we move on. And that’s why the conversation happens every single day. Because we both are like over it. We say what we have to say and then we move along. Right? There is no that stuff is not brought into. So when he loses his, credit card, right.
00;43;53;26 – 00;44;07;26
Unknown
Can’t can’t find it. You’re not bringing anything into that conversation. You just genuinely don’t care that he can’t find his credit card, because this is not your problem. Oh, no, I happen I have a credit card. I’m like, oh, okay, let’s go see what the steps. What do we need? Where do we need to find it? Okay.
00;44;07;26 – 00;44;33;23
Unknown
What if he lost his vape? Don’t care or you’d help him find that and either help him find it or say just come in. Another one was. I’d rather you not talk about it. Just go find another one or buy another one. So do you feel you do make space for his emotional needs? Yes, but he doesn’t want to.
00;44;33;25 – 00;44;54;04
Unknown
Make you say to emotional? Yes, but he doesn’t want to go there. Correct. So great example is, this new job that he got, he has a lot of feelings about it. And it’s funny because I’ll ask questions are all given an opportunity to talk about it, but then he decides to steer the conversation in a different direction because that makes him uncomfortable.
00;44;54;06 – 00;45;07;20
Unknown
He doesn’t want to talk about it. But actually I’ll say do you think this is connected to blah blah blah blah. And he’ll be like what are you talking about? And he doesn’t, he doesn’t want to go there, which is very helpful in our relationship because neither do I at the end of the day. But I will give you space to do it.
00;45;07;20 – 00;45;23;14
Unknown
And then I’ll say, what do you need for me? Do you want me just to listen to you? Do you want me to give you advice? What do you need? And usually he just wants to talk. He just wants to vocalize things. Yeah. Not much. Yeah. He doesn’t want help for support. He just wants to do it out loud.
00;45;23;15 – 00;45;52;08
Unknown
Just wants to repeat the same thing over and over again. So. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I just find myself aware of I’m feeling a little bit bad for men more than I typically do. Maybe that’s what it comes down to for me. Again, I say that, and then I get mad at myself for saying that. Right? But I really I’m feeling.
00;45;52;10 – 00;46;14;29
Unknown
Badly that I personally may not be giving as much credence to the experience of men. So a good example would be I did post that on my post for Father’s Day and I was like, okay, come in peace. But just a quick question. Is anyone else experiencing this? And a few men responded and said, thanks for saying that because they experienced it.
00;46;15;06 – 00;46;42;09
Unknown
Because yeah, I agree with you. That isn’t a part of my experience. Right? Or men were liking the post, right? Like, and so then I was like, okay, so there is something here because these men are feeling seen. They almost need. I don’t know, like a woman to acknowledge it or speak up for it because they themselves aren’t in a place where they can say that yet, because maybe it takes away their man card to say it right, like I, I don’t want to.
00;46;42;11 – 00;47;01;01
Unknown
Again, I have such conflicting feelings about this and I want to come over here being an advocate for men, right. Because I’m definitely an advocate for men. You are like, well, I work for a men’s group. Absolutely an advocate for men.
00;47;01;03 – 00;47;30;01
Unknown
I’m not. That’s fine. I’m not. But I, I think I well it’s good to know who our friends are. I think I want to make space to try and be more. Supportive or, or understanding or. That makes no sense when you say you’re not an advocate for men because you’re raising a son to not align with the way that society.
00;47;30;04 – 00;47;50;14
Unknown
Treats, views, acts so that would whatever advocate of of of men, of men isn’t a good man. I don’t have a son. So it’s really. Am I just an advocate for the future of men? Right. Like, are you afraid? No. You know what? You know I’m not. I’m going to say it. She’s afraid that she’s going to come across as a non feminist.
00;47;50;16 – 00;48;19;07
Unknown
I don’t know if I identify as a feminist to begin with. Are you afraid that by saying you’re an advocate for men, that because you’re so literal and words matter, that somebody might hear? That I’m anti women, not anti, but not, you know what I mean? Like some something that feels different. I’m not worried someone might think that, I, I’m worried that I feel that for myself.
00;48;19;11 – 00;48;36;20
Unknown
I, I worry that if, if I am, you know, like here I am trying to make space for men to be better men, that I’m. I’m somehow hurting myself and other women I care about in the process. That’s what I mean. That’s exactly what I mean. So like, but I don’t I don’t care what people think about that.
00;48;36;20 – 00;49;03;09
Unknown
I’m like, oh no, someone’s going to call me out for whatever. Why supporting men? Why saying or feeling that you can support men changes anything you feel about supporting or loving women. Yeah. Why does that make it? That’s one or the other. That’s I think the topic of the show is, I think for whatever reason, they are connected and I don’t know if they’re connected just for me, if they’re connected for other women, if they’re connected.
00;49;03;11 – 00;49;35;24
Unknown
Oh, I don’t, I don’t know because they’re not connected for me at all. Right. Interesting at all. That’s why when we talk about gender roles, I do not have these feelings about it because they’re not connected. Interesting. And they are connected for me in some way that I don’t. And so I’m thinking about whatever that meme is that, the meme that maybe, like, equity is not a pie, you know, for right, for me doesn’t mean less rights for you or whatever it is for you.
00;49;35;25 – 00;49;59;14
Unknown
Just because you might as a man, you might cry at a movie, doesn’t mean you lose your man card like or is supporting men and helping them be better versions of themselves also supporting women? Yes, I think you’re right. I don’t know how. And I know you say that so many times about why you choose to raise your son the way you are.
00;49;59;16 – 00;50;24;04
Unknown
Yes, is very different for me with Carter. I don’t know why, but I feel like that’s something that I have control over. The illusion of control. Right? I feel like I have control over that, and I am. That is my legacy that I am passing on to. This world is as emotionally available, sound, empathic and aware of his surroundings, man as can possibly be, based in his given abilities.
00;50;24;04 – 00;50;44;08
Unknown
I feel like that is that’s the best in who to who. I don’t know, right? Well that I hope that that will impact plenty people, right? The man or woman that he ends up with? Exactly. It’s more the current existing men that are in the world that trigger that response to me. I also wanting to make that space.
00;50;44;08 – 00;51;15;09
Unknown
I also feel strongly, strongly that it’s because of who is in your privy. I think. I think if you were to witness, I mean, you did you you came to this men’s group and you saw things and you experienced things. I see the aftermath. I see the changes that happen in these people’s lives because we are connected on social media and they share these stories, and a lot of these men have their own businesses, and then they take what they learn and they offshoot it and they do whatever.
00;51;15;12 – 00;51;42;16
Unknown
So I’m kind stantly surrounded by all of that. Your experience with a lot of men is what you call white men. No white men in positions of power. And that is not my experience at all, because I left that world and wasn’t trying to break that glass ceiling. So I think that that’s where yeah, that frame of reference.
00;51;42;16 – 00;52;07;26
Unknown
Yeah. Very different. Very, very you have a lot of examples of men with an any part of an IQ and ability to be able to manage the emotionality of their children, their spouse, and run a business at the same time. Correct. And that’s that is the core epitome of this group of 250 men. Right? What they do at the daily.
00;52;08;03 – 00;52;31;24
Unknown
So it’s very different for me. And and I also didn’t grow up with a dad. I grew up with all women in my life. The only man in my life is my husband. That’s it. I also have girl children. So there. And Phillip is very feminine in a lot of ways. There’s just. It’s very different experience. Then then maybe your surroundings or what you have gone through in your life.
00;52;31;24 – 00;53;02;17
Unknown
So that might just be, I do think that’s a very important part of the conversation, because if I was doing what you are doing day in and day out all the time, maybe I feel that we are making space for care for men constantly. And maybe in that courtroom I would have seen a very different situation if there were men from the front row dads who showed up and saw this man and really brought him in to their community.
00;53;02;18 – 00;53;33;05
Unknown
That’s just not my experience or my purview makes so much sense. And I hope specifically because you’re raising your son to be a specific kind of person that you. Provide more of when you when you look at your surroundings, you need to put him in those surroundings. Otherwise it’s going to be a constant lesson. He’s not going to find a community and then he’s going to feel that internal battle.
00;53;33;05 – 00;53;57;26
Unknown
Yeah, yes, I see it all the time. Kelly up the street. And I joke about it where like, bro Carter just came out. He even flexes his voice because like what are we doing today. You know. And I’m like this just you just showed up. Oh it that right. It is more of an internal battle. And this is for a kid who is typically nine and trying to figure out how do I fit in with the rest of my surroundings.
00;53;57;26 – 00;54;26;12
Unknown
Right. But that is such a great point that then surroundings matter because of who he is so fitting in with. If he is going to the front row kids group, correct? Right. Versus going to soccer camp that is with a whole bunch of jock kids from, you know, wherever exactly that that environment matters, right? Because it was ultimately going to depict how he surrounds himself when he gets older.
00;54;26;16 – 00;54;51;11
Unknown
Yes. And who he chooses to be around. And I’m very aware right now that the energy he chooses to be around is dysfunctional, high energetic, not making good choices, fun, energy. His ADHD draws him to that like a moth to a flame. That will not change. That’s going to be really. That’s great. I think about it.
00;54;51;11 – 00;55;08;02
Unknown
I’m trying to get it out of him now. You can’t, you can’t it. You’re drawn to what you. Oh, well, tell me about that. I have you in my life. I have Marc in my life. I have Carter in my life. I have Scott in my life. I have Morgan in my life. I have Alex in my life.
00;55;08;02 – 00;55;31;20
Unknown
I have all these people in my life who all have ADHD diagnoses. And I’m constantly looking around like, what the hell is going on? So you tell me more about how we pick our surroundings, but I just mean as a, as a, as a kid like, and even as an adult you are drawn to what makes you feel good or I know, I know, I’m trying even it right out of even if it’s not the best decision.
00;55;31;21 – 00;55;57;18
Unknown
No it’s not, it’s not. Yeah I know and so it takes that conscious effort to make the change. And change is hard. Or to put some boundaries around being able to make those choices. But also maybe we don’t have 16 people like that in our life. Maybe we have three. Right. Or only and we can only handle so much.
00;55;57;20 – 00;56;16;11
Unknown
Maybe we’re aware of our own internal experience, even though other people might get ramped up. Right. How how do we still stay true to ourselves even though. Right. Like you might do party on party people in the library, right? But that doesn’t mean I’m squatting down. That’s like doing the thing at the same time. That’s right. Right. That’s right.
00;56;16;11 – 00;56;48;13
Unknown
So absolutely choices matter. All right. My affirmation card. I know that my journey will have highs and lows. I am aiming for progress. Okay. Progress for men battle harassment, masks for men. Everyone. I loved that. Me too. Is an empathy. Amazing. Well we’re amazing. I don’t know about all this empathy stuff. That’s fine. I accept you wherever you are.
00;56;48;20 – 00;57;11;13
Unknown
Oh, God, I love you. I love you too. And if you love us, please like and subscribe to More Love the Power of Empathy podcast wherever you get your podcasts. See you next time.
Unknown
If a man comes up to you and punches you in the face. Do I immediately go to the man and say, I’m so sorry you got angered that much? I’m so sorry. You’re you’re fucking laying on the ground in a bloody mass. And I’m like, I’ll get to you in a minute. But, you know, he’s really he’s in a bad place right now.
00;00;14;29 – 00;00;31;03
Unknown
He’s, he’s he got really angry. Right. We’d be appalled if that happened. Why was that so normalized in that situation?
00;00;31;05 – 00;00;53;18
Unknown
Hey, it’s me Erin, Thanks for joining us on the More Love podcast. Do not tell Rebecca, but this podcast is about empathy. She likes people to think she’s dead inside. But the truth is, she’s a big time feeler who has truly helped me uncover that empathy is my superpower. Here she comes. Hey, bestie. Hi, love. What are you doing?
00;00;53;19 – 00;01;29;20
Unknown
Oh, just getting ready to host a podcast. A podcast about what? Our life, our life is. Best friends who are more like sisters. Yay! I love us, and I can’t wait to share our stories with the world, especially the ones that involve us pushing each other right to be our most authentic selves. Oh, man. Okay. The podcast must have just aired saying that we weren’t doing this subscription service anymore because I had someone contact me and be like, no, oh, how come?
00;01;29;26 – 00;01;49;05
Unknown
And then followed quickly by a I really appreciate you guys knowing your boundaries and that you could do what you couldn’t do, right. Like, I can’t stop when you know what it’s like, mutual feelings that come with me of empathy so that I don’t even know what’s airing at what time anymore. Because we’re so far ahead on the podcast.
00;01;49;05 – 00;02;06;20
Unknown
But that one must have just aired because people will send me random messages and I’ll be like, why is he talking about this? For us, it was so long ago. One was, here’s a hint teabag your eye. And I’m like, what? What? What was that for? Okay, that was the time I had the stye in my eye that they thought was shingles.
00;02;06;27 – 00;02;35;17
Unknown
That’s funny. But like that completely out of context. I’m like, oh boy, that’s funny. You teabag your eyes. Yeah. Oh, snap me in. That’s funny. Oh my gosh. So I know you never check our email for our love podcast, but we got an email that is from this person. I’ll share your vara Kara vara. Okay. And it’s to both of us okay.
00;02;35;19 – 00;02;58;05
Unknown
And says I love the themes of empathy, connection and personal growth that you explore on your podcast. Thank you. Thank you. How? We don’t know. Also, that’s exciting. Someone that we don’t know. Listening to the podcast, I love that. Well she’s had it out over the last five years. She developed a really big interest in empathy as a vital role in mental health.
00;02;58;08 – 00;03;23;21
Unknown
And she wrote a book called The Little Book of Empathy, which is a pocket sized guide that redefines empathy as a powerful tool for healing, fostering understanding, and strengthening connections. Love that. So al was giving us a free copy O of my God, this is our first free gift. For free gift. We got we got to the borderline sponsor.
00;03;23;23 – 00;03;40;26
Unknown
We got a sponsor. We’ve got a we got a free gift. Love that right for our listeners. So I went on and got it. Here it is right here. I got to stop it. It’s so cute. It looks totally like our branding. I know the little pithy. So I had said to al, oh my God, thank you so much.
00;03;40;26 – 00;04;02;00
Unknown
We really appreciate this. Thanks for thinking of us. We’ll be sure to check it out and share our feedback on a future show. We appreciate you listening to the show and thanks for connecting. She said thanks so much, Rebecca. You’re so welcome, al. You’re so. Let me see that. That’s the doorbell. No email. No nothing. I know, I mean, you just you just love the that they all said.
00;04;02;02 – 00;04;28;19
Unknown
Thanks so much. That’s adorable. Alejandro. Alejandro al for short. So this is really cute. And it’s this cute little book. It’s. You can get it for free on Amazon. It’s like this free little e-book that you can get and, stop it with this branding. It’s adorable. So just read one random page in there cleansing tears. It is okay to let your tears flow.
00;04;28;22 – 00;04;49;03
Unknown
Crying can be a healing process that cleanses both your soul and body. When you cry, your body releases chemicals that act as a natural relief. Relief helping you feel better. Don’t suppress your tears when you feel the need to cry. Tip allow yourself to cry when you need to. It’s a healthy way to express your feelings and facilitate healing.
00;04;49;05 – 00;05;10;04
Unknown
Two there’s like one there, like the definition of empathy. Where does it come from? Then there’s like little tips and tricks. I think there’s a couple. It’s a little bit of a workbook. Two it’s just pocket size. Yeah, just really fun size. It’s fun size. Empathy isn’t a cliche hallmark statement or sentiment strip. What’s it say on the back?
00;05;10;04 – 00;05;32;18
Unknown
There? That’s. Yeah. Like the backpack. It says kindness, connection and understanding placed by the. Yeah. It talks a little bit about empathy for your children. And when you’re giving them a hug, how that’s the truest form. There’s a quote from Brené Brown right in here. Freaking love. Brené Brown. Empathy is I’m here to feel with you. Sympathy is I’m sorry to hear what you’re going through.
00;05;32;18 – 00;05;58;15
Unknown
Compassion is I see what you are going through, and I want to do something to help you. Empathy does not require you to compromise your well-being to help those who cause you harm. It’s about understanding, not shouldering unnecessary burdens. It means protecting your inner peace by setting healthy boundaries, taking care of yourself while managing difficult relationships with understanding and ensuring your emotional well-being remains intact.
00;05;58;17 – 00;06;24;15
Unknown
Always remember that self-care is not an act of selfishness. Rather, it is an essential expression of love and respect for yourself. Nice. It’s really sweet. So I wanted to show that here today. We will put that up on the We Love page on our website. Let me pull want to go and just get their free e-book. And thank you all for contacting us, sharing it and then giving Rebecca credit for responding when that 100% didn’t happen.
00;06;24;16 – 00;06;46;05
Unknown
That’s totally. So what kind of hippie will you got for us today? Today is the King of Cups, and I’m pretty sure we’ve had this before because it’s the whale I love with the red solo beer. The beer pong cup. Yeah. So the whale’s cool. The King of Cups is basically a black belt of emotional mastery, and he’d be more happy to take you under his instructive wing.
00;06;46;05 – 00;07;13;12
Unknown
Hire him as your personal Zen master, and let him show you how to feel your feelings with maturity, stability, and care for others. Honestly, it might be more annoying to be around someone that’s perfect, but you can’t stop visualizing your face. It’s just when you said being around someone that’s perfect, right? Thank you. It might have, might might get annoying to be around someone this perfect, but see if you can take a page from his book and run with it.
00;07;13;12 – 00;07;38;07
Unknown
This sort of balance will come in handy the next time you need to go to the DMV. So funny. That’s cute. I’m going to start us. So the video today. Well, really, Scott is can I found this video in. I cannot stop following this kid. Nice to cram. Okay. I love him so much. It’s his delivery. It’s his little voice.
00;07;38;14 – 00;08;00;25
Unknown
This is. He has got to be. I don’t know, like, little or like a teenager. 5 or 6. He’s little. Yeah, okay. He’s this little guy. But as a segue into what we’re going to talk about today, I’m going to start you with this adorable video. I love it quite that much. Yes. Thank you, Mr. President. I need your permission.
00;08;00;27 – 00;08;35;17
Unknown
Oh, well, daddy, we’re the size of a mountain. Okay, buddy. Huge panda bear. No! Panda! Oh, my God, there is no model here, daddy. He doesn’t know. And he doesn’t know what tiny good egg you do here. Does he need to do this work when I go? Can I not be nice? Oh, yeah. And how do you get to the gym without each other?
00;08;35;19 – 00;09;07;15
Unknown
Don’t know. Why not. Then he drives me over there to lift the white. I’m gonna go the gym. The model for you, Waco. Sounds like. Sounds like my house. Little Scottish lab. Tomorrow, before you wake up, you go. You’re right. Stop it. He has all these little videos where he’s, like, talking to his sister, and he’s talking to his mom, and like, he just gives this advice and I can’t with the accent.
00;09;07;15 – 00;09;28;15
Unknown
Oh, sweet little. I know you’re right, Scott. He’s probably like 4 or 5. He’s he’s a little little. He’s a little guy. Oh so I watched that and I thought God that that’s so interesting that this, this little dude, right, is like, feel my muscles, feel how big my muscles are. They’re bigger than my dad’s, right? They’re they’re mountains.
00;09;28;19 – 00;09;49;13
Unknown
They’re they’re all these things. And then of course, I can’t just take that at face value. I start to think about all the different stereotypes and social pressures that we put on men. And then I see on TV this episode of it was like Judge Judy, but it’s a different woman who’s doing it. I should judge, okay? Right.
00;09;49;16 – 00;10;27;14
Unknown
And it’s a paternity test show judgment thing, like, again, like Judge Judy, but it’s a paternity one, okay? And this man is on the one side and believes that he is the father of this child. The mother has told him he is the father of this child. But somewhere along the way, he’s been given some reason to believe that he might not be the father of this child.
00;10;27;14 – 00;10;56;04
Unknown
And so he is now bringing her to court, even though he does not want to. He wants to remain in a relationship with her, and he wants to continue to be the father of this child, but understandably wants to know for sure if he is the father. So you have this man on the one side and you have the woman on the other side, and she’s saying unequivocally, he is the father of this child.
00;10;56;06 – 00;11;29;07
Unknown
So she reads that the judge reads the results and he is not the father. And this woman collapses on to the floor, is crying, is absolutely beside herself. She’s screaming, no, no, no, that can’t be true. Right? These people start coming to the aid of this woman. They’re bending down. They’re like getting on her level. They’re like, it’s going to be all right.
00;11;29;09 – 00;12;01;00
Unknown
It’s going to be okay. And they pan the camera over to this man. And this man is standing here looking off into space, incredibly distraught because he just found out that this child that he loves so much is not his child. And I have this moment where I all I think is no one is comforting that man right now.
00;12;01;02 – 00;12;33;12
Unknown
Now one person. Yeah. Why it went over because he’s not making a scene, man. Oh, and comforted him. Supported him. The judge is, you know, commenting on this woman and saying like, miss So-and-so, you know, we now have an answer. It’s okay. You know, she she’s spending all this time talking to this woman and then eventually comes around to the man and says, Mr. So-and-so, I bet this is so terrible for you to hear.
00;12;33;12 – 00;13;02;05
Unknown
How are you feeling? And he just stands there, shocked and absolutely distraught. And it’s in this moment that I came up with the topic of this show, which is essentially, are we are we doing man a disservice and are we misunderstanding men? And have we been unfair to men? Wow. This. I don’t think that I think this has anything to do with genders.
00;13;02;05 – 00;13;34;22
Unknown
That specific scene, she’s just in fact, an out of control crazy. Your focus is on her. No, I’m not focused. No, that’s why the people were focused on her. Cause she was acting crazy. People should have said, well, you were ho. And that exposed. So you’re an idiot, that you’re. You’re. That’s actually I agree, I well, there’s a surprise why I’m surprised that there that they were doing that like they should have went to him and been like even if he wasn’t freaking out, been like, dude, I’m in theory.
00;13;34;24 – 00;13;59;13
Unknown
Yeah. Like, holy crap, she a liar. Yeah, yeah. But she’s this feels so much bigger to me than that. This is not the only example that we have of times where we are not tending to the emotional needs of men because they’re either not showing their emotional needs, they’re faking and hiding their emotional needs, or we’re just assuming that they’re completely fine.
00;13;59;16 – 00;14;20;08
Unknown
Yeah. Good point. And that comes down to whether or not we take them seriously about if they need to go to the doctor. It comes down seriously when we talk about the man called, it comes down when we talk about what’s the man called. Every single time a man gets a cold it’s almost like he lost his right arm.
00;14;20;10 – 00;14;57;07
Unknown
Oh gotcha. Yeah, yeah. It comes down to something I experienced on Father’s Day where the tons and tons of posts on Mother’s Day. Not not about definitely about mothers. Right. But specifically about subgroups of mothers. So mothers who have lost a child, mothers who have strained relationships with their own mothers, mothers who have had rainbow babies, mothers who write like all these different, like listen lists and lists of the different types of mom that exist.
00;14;57;07 – 00;15;18;27
Unknown
Happy Mother’s Day, not just to your, you know, moms that you expect to be supporting on Mother’s Day, but let’s make sure moms of fur babies, right? Let’s make sure that we’ve encompassed all sorts of other types of moms when Father’s Day comes, and I do see the Happy Father’s Day to my father, happy Father’s Day to my father in law.
00;15;19;00 – 00;15;47;04
Unknown
Happy Father’s Day to right. But what I don’t see is Happy Father’s Day to the fathers who. Why or girlfriends left them. Happy Father’s Day to men who are only, who are fathers to fur babies happy Fathers Day to men who have lost a baby. Right? I saw none of that. Well, my guess is because it’s your algorithm.
00;15;47;04 – 00;16;12;20
Unknown
You’re in mom’s. You’re in tons of moms face groups, Facebook groups. See everything in your algorithm as mom focused. Everything in my algorithm is dad focused. I’m. I work for a dads group. I see that shit all the time. So on Father’s Day you were seeing. Oh, I, I don’t know, but I see tremendous things. Fathers related. I’d have to go back and I didn’t hyper focus on that.
00;16;12;20 – 00;16;35;27
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, I, I do that stuff a lot. What it is you’re seeing about fathers, what you’re seeing about men, what you’re seeing about right now specifically for me in algorithm, it’s always leadership. Yeah. And where the leader in your family, you’re the leader. Yeah, it’s definitely not. Well, I’m not going to say it’s not emotional focus because.
00;16;35;27 – 00;17;08;12
Unknown
Because it is. But it’s it’s different. But I think that. The algorithms of these types of things are really kind of sad because it’s forcing you into your interest. It’s not exposing you to other puts you in the rabbit hole. Yes, yes, fair. And that’s true of all algorithms. But I’m curious if that content exists and it’s not just being shown to me if it exists far, far, far less than it exists for women.
00;17;08;14 – 00;17;53;07
Unknown
Yeah, they’re not theirs. Right. So my my overall feel on this is it really got me thinking about if we’re doing a disservice to men or if we really are being unfair to men when we’re like, you’re a really shitty provider for your family. And then we are angry that the man doesn’t have emotional capacity to be able to manage certain things when I see it even young, with my own son, who I really like to think I’m trying my best to raise in an emotionally supportive environment, and how that’s gets beat out of him every time he goes, plays a football game up the street, and every time that he, you know, wants to
00;17;53;07 – 00;18;15;27
Unknown
have a moment where he will, will be walking into the grocery store, right. And I’ll grab his arm and you can tell he’s completely comfortable with that because he likes showing those types of expressions of connection with me. But he’s hyper aware of the fact that he’s a nine year old kid in the Wegmans parking lot. Right? Whereas little area up the street, she’ll hold on to me.
00;18;15;27 – 00;18;47;29
Unknown
It’ll hold onto my arm will be, you know, she zero concerns about showing expression of love and care and comfort and those types of things. Right. I even notice I have a reaction to myself and the feelings that come up for me when I talk about unfairness to men. Right? In what way? I feel like I immediately want to combat that with don’t hear me say, men are saints and wonderful and great at everything, and we’ve just been giving them an unfair shake right?
00;18;47;29 – 00;19;28;08
Unknown
I immediately have this reaction that’s like I hate, I hate myself. Qualities of men pretty well. Right. Like there’s, there’s some things. But I really wanted to make space in this conversation to entertain what may be us unfairly setting men up in environments, in situations where they can’t be appropriately supportive or haven’t been appropriately supported. And then instead of giving them the space to get there, we just dog on them all the time.
00;19;28;10 – 00;19;50;04
Unknown
And as soon as I say that, I’m immediately thinking of the man called and I’m like, it’s frickin annoying and not okay, and you probably should get that shit and Jack, right? But I really don’t want to go there. I really want to make the space for. Have we? Not done a service to men over the last however many years.
00;19;50;06 – 00;20;20;06
Unknown
What do you mean? We like. Who’s we talking about? Society. Society? Women, mothers. I mean, it’s mothers. Everything you’re describing is. Is. It’s so big. And it goes back. So far, I’ve noticed that there is a trend that’s been beginning for a while. That’s kind of it’s going to take a while to get there. But it ticked off the whole, the man card thing.
00;20;20;06 – 00;20;40;03
Unknown
Oh, God, I got to take away your man card. That’s, that’s been that goes back I mean think about I’m not a big sports guy. I don’t, I don’t watch football. Like I watched the end of the bills game yesterday and I enjoyed it. But I don’t seek out football. I don’t seek out sports. It’s just not what I do.
00;20;40;08 – 00;21;01;28
Unknown
I would rather watch a movie that I’ve seen a hundred times. Then then watch a sports game. Sometimes I’m into it. I’m like, I’m going to watch football today because that’s what I feel like doing. That’s my husband. My husband’s not into that either, but he’ll like he watched football yesterday partly because it’s new and then it’ll be over with me I like watching I like watching a football game.
00;21;02;01 – 00;21;20;25
Unknown
Just because I like the sport of football to a certain extent. But but are you saying that society says you’re not a man if you don’t like football or sports? If you’re not, if you’re a dude and you’re not completely absorbed in sports for ten months out of the year, you’re you’re less of a mess of a man.
00;21;20;28 – 00;21;43;20
Unknown
And I’ve noticed that that’s, that’s kind of decreasing. It was way worse when I was in my 20s. Now it’s, it’s a little bit less and I think and it could just be my own perception of me not giving a shit what, what people think because I am very much secure in my manhood. I know exactly who I am, I know exactly what I like, and I know the kind of person I am.
00;21;43;22 – 00;22;01;12
Unknown
There was a time where I wasn’t where I was very insecure and, you know, I still have my own insecurities as we all do, but that, that growing up with that and I come from, you know, I don’t want to say that, that I come from a real alpha male type of family because it’s not that bad.
00;22;01;14 – 00;22;28;19
Unknown
But my, my father and my older brothers fit into that category of sport. You know, all about football, all about going fishing, all about, you know, all this kind of stuff like romance stuff. You know, they got their boats and they got the campers. And I want those two so hot. I want those toys to. I just can’t fucking affordable unlike them.
00;22;28;21 – 00;22;50;13
Unknown
I would love to have that stuff, but but that’s kind of all wrapped up in that that man identity. Where me I was I was more into tech. I was more, you know, like you call a dude, hey, can you come over and help me frame out this wall and hang some drywall or, can you come?
00;22;50;13 – 00;23;12;02
Unknown
Can you come here? Come fix my computer? I do tutors tattoo. You know, it’s not a guy coming up to you being like you want to talk about it? Not hot, not hot. No, no, no. Hey, are you saying that that literally. It’s not hot? Are you saying. I’m saying that’s. To me. That’s not hot. It what she means when she says not hot is it makes her highly uncomfortable.
00;23;12;02 – 00;23;35;13
Unknown
But it’s the one thing she seeks more than anything in the world, in any type of romantic relationship, in any certain capacity. That level in. That’s what she really means. So certain capacities, if it’s all the time now, what, you don’t want to talk about it all the time. You you do not movie bedazzled and Frazier and, Elizabeth Hurley check out check out that movie.
00;23;35;13 – 00;23;56;11
Unknown
It’s so quick. Basically, Elizabeth Hurley is the devil, right? And Brendan Fraser is a guy who makes a deal with the devil and wishes for things. And whenever she grants the wish, it’s always to the extreme of whatever the wish is like. It’s like I want to be. I want to be a man’s man. And then he becomes like this ridiculous.
00;23;56;11 – 00;24;16;01
Unknown
Like it’s just funny. There’s always a twist at the end of each one of these, these wishes, okay? And he’s like, I want to be, sensitive and get it. And so the character that she creates for him is like, he’s like, ridiculous. He’s sitting on the on the beach, and he can’t stop crying because of the sunset.
00;24;16;02 – 00;24;35;09
Unknown
Yeah, no kids stuff. And he’s possessed. And so it’s like the extreme, you know, everybody wants that person who is checks all the boxes and nobody checks all the boxes. But there has to be a balance. Of course, of course, I think. I think maybe what you’re trying to hint at is how can we have more? Not you.
00;24;35;12 – 00;25;05;25
Unknown
Scott, you, Erin, how can we have more of a balanced, experience in all humans? Maybe. No. I see where the two of you and your your rants could get there. But what? I mean, what I’m trying to say is, Oh, I thought I was contributing to the conversation. I don’t think it’s a rant. I don’t think that we have.
00;25;05;28 – 00;25;34;01
Unknown
I don’t think we’re creating enough space to really understand the experience of men for who men are. I think we are very quick to, again, in that situation of the the judge situation, we’re just immediately going to assume, all right, well, that that dad, you know, doesn’t need any support or doesn’t need to be checked in on or whatever, because he seems to be all right.
00;25;34;01 – 00;25;56;27
Unknown
And. Yeah, well, good for you, man. Now you don’t have to pay child support, right. Like we go immediately there. Where’s the part of us that’s like, this man just found out that that child is not his. I don’t know why you’re assuming that. That’s where everybody went, because nobody came over to him. Everyone in this show immediately tended to this woman for ridiculous amounts of time because she was acting crazy.
00;25;56;27 – 00;26;19;26
Unknown
I don’t care what she was doing. It doesn’t matter to me what she’s doing. We’ve we’ve, in that case, tended to the woman, and we’ve tended to the fact that she’s throwing a fit on the floor or whatever the hell she is doing. She caused harm to this individual, and we didn’t look at the person who was harmed.
00;26;20;01 – 00;26;35;11
Unknown
We went immediately in that case, to the person who caused the harm. In what other scenarios do we do that if a man comes up to you and punches you in the face, do I immediately go to the man and say, I’m so sorry you got angered that much? I’m so sorry. You’re you’re fucking laying on the ground in a bloody mess.
00;26;35;11 – 00;26;57;10
Unknown
And I’m like, I’ll get to you in a minute. But, you know, he’s really he’s in a bad place right now. He’s, he’s he got really angry. Right. We’d be appalled if that happened. Why was that so normalized in that situation? It felt very normal. It feel completely normal that in this situation, this man needs to stand there and tend to it himself, because we had to just make sure that this woman was okay.
00;26;57;10 – 00;27;19;04
Unknown
First, I feel like we’re playing role reversal. And here’s my question. Where the people who who were tending to her, her family members that I know that were it was the, it was the judge. It was the who’s the guy? The guy in the the bail, the bailiff, the bailiff. Right. Okay. And it was, there was somebody else.
00;27;19;06 – 00;27;43;28
Unknown
Maybe that person was a family member, but it was. And then like the the people that were like that were sitting in the audience that were like, oh, not for him. For her. Oh my God, it’s so sad. She just found out that he is not the father. And I’m having this reaction where I’m like, and you know for sure that the faces on the audience members were for her, not for him.
00;27;44;01 – 00;28;11;03
Unknown
They only showed they only carried in on her in these people were literally like leaning over the, the, the bar thing. That’s how they cut it together. That’s how they want you. True. I mean, again, TV’s a terrible yeah, it’s a terrible let’s talk about real life that that and I don’t mean to belittle what you’re saying, but I take anything from TV with a grain of salt because it’s it’s it’s shot from a point of view.
00;28;11;03 – 00;28;29;14
Unknown
It’s one person’s point of view is that, you know, I know what they want to introducer wanted to say that like, let’s let’s make everybody look like they’re going to I mean, could be right. We don’t we don’t know. But if it was live. But I’m confused. I’m really confused. No one tended to this man that they showed on TV.
00;28;29;15 – 00;28;44;29
Unknown
We don’t know that to be true. They can cut things together like you would not believe. I’m telling you. And those people bending over might have actually been bending like I don’t. I have a lot of questions. That’s what I mean. I feel like we’re in a role reversal because I have a lot of questions. I do not take any of that for face value.
00;28;45;02 – 00;29;06;24
Unknown
None of it. Okay, I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m not either. But because I didn’t see it, I’ve questioned it’s very possible that because immediately my stomach when when you told the story, I wanted to hug the man. I’m like, oh my God, that’s horrible. That’s what I mean. Because he saw he and then she’s she’s causing a scene because she got caught.
00;29;06;26 – 00;29;29;28
Unknown
Do you think that’s what people’s reaction would be out in real life? Yeah, they’d go over to the man. I don’t know if they would physically go over to him, but I think that they would absolutely have empathy and if she’s still terrible and she’s crying and shit, it’d be like, yeah, that’s right. Well, you deserve it. You you caused this.
00;29;29;28 – 00;29;54;28
Unknown
Don’t feel bad for you at all, bitch. Yeah, that’s how I felt. Yeah, that’s how I felt. That isn’t what was portrayed so. Right. I don’t want to get caught in the details of what was portrayed. It, what I what I’m trying to say is, I don’t think we make enough space for men to be able to have the emotions that they need to have, and for us to be able to tend to what it is they’re going through, because we constantly push it off.
00;29;54;28 – 00;30;15;14
Unknown
Absolutely. So if my husband is going to say that he has a cold, I’m immediately going to here we go. You know, cancel all the plans. Man. Can’t come out of the room for 48 hours because he’s got the sniffles, right? I’m not making any space for the fact that he’s having a reaction to the fact that he doesn’t feel well, he actually has to be real.
00;30;15;14 – 00;30;35;01
Unknown
Hella not feeling well in order for him to get attention from me. Right? Maybe a trained response on his part. Right. To be fair. Right. The other example I’m talking about is if he gets physically injured, right, I’m more apt to be like, come on, you hit your head on the door. But is that because it’s your husband?
00;30;35;01 – 00;30;58;21
Unknown
I don’t think you have that reaction to men as a community. No, but it’s like a blanket. I don’t think you feel that way about. I think that’s just your personal experience with him in particular. Philip had a cold. He he was he was like, I was like, oh, my sinuses are really, really bad. I wouldn’t be like, I’m really sorry about that.
00;30;58;21 – 00;31;20;05
Unknown
Philip. Is there anything I can do, you know, to help you or take anything off your plane? I’d be like, oh, sinus or bad. Sorry about your freaking sinuses. You sound like so far, you know, let me tell you what I’ve been through in the like. It’s it’s that it’s the like nothing you can do is ever going to make up for the fact that I feel whatever.
00;31;20;05 – 00;31;58;03
Unknown
Right. It’s so it’s like in that situation with the with the guy who found out the kid wasn’t has. It’s like, oh, that’s really bad. I feel really sad about that. And I’m sorry that that happened to you. But you know how many frickin deadbeat dad there are in this world and moms that have to make up for it, it’s that it’s like this interesting imbalance that that comes about that I think part of us not making space for men in their feelings is because there’s been injuries from men for so long, and it’s very hard to make the space to open up the door, to be kind and compassionate and caring to these men
00;31;58;03 – 00;32;18;12
Unknown
when there has been harm done in some in some way. Right. But I think that that is harder on men than it is on, on women. I think we’re more apt to be like if if you are struggling with something or you’re not feeling well, I’m immediately like, oh, she’s real down and out because she doesn’t complain about anything, right?
00;32;18;15 – 00;32;36;25
Unknown
And then I’m coming over and I’m trying to fix that situation for you. Or you need childcare for some reason, right? I might be like to the man, I might be like, oh, sorry, is your life interrupted because you actually have to watch your frickin children? Whereas for you, I’m like, you need to go get your hair done.
00;32;36;25 – 00;32;56;26
Unknown
Absolutely. Why don’t you take a minute to yourself? I’ll watch the kids. So, you know, you’re the you’re the psychologist in the group or whatever, but you’re the professional. You’re the you’re the doctor. But just, fly on the wall. Sounds like you got a chip on your shoulder about something like it sounds like you’ve been mistreated, and.
00;32;56;26 – 00;33;21;09
Unknown
And so now you’re returning that, like, that’s how you see it. I think society as a whole is doing that to men. And I have some concerns about that. A when I, when I first got married, up until about last week now, the suck it up Sally was the quote that, she used to like to say the most.
00;33;21;11 – 00;33;46;17
Unknown
And, it was always suck it up. It was always suck it up. And there was no, there was no quarter for me to actually have a legitimate problem that needed to be dealt with. It was always like, you know, be a man. Suck it up. You can get through this big deal. Like, oh, you’re depressed.
00;33;46;19 – 00;34;15;11
Unknown
Suck it up. Deal with it. People have problems. I think that’s common. And I agree that is that is common. And it took it took many years of us growing apart and then realizing that we didn’t like the fact that we were growing apart and Kelly deciding that she was part of the problem and realizing where she comes from and realizing that her dad is just like that, the strong, silent type that he could, you know, you could cut off, part his arm and be like, no, I’m fine.
00;34;15;13 – 00;34;35;02
Unknown
You know? It’s like, no, you cannot. It’s okay for you to not be fine and it’s okay for you to ask for help. But. And if she had made space for that, instead of saying, suck it up, Sally. Right, right. She’s not making space for that one because of generational experiences, too. She might have that same chip on her shoulder that I think a lot of women do.
00;34;35;06 – 00;34;58;25
Unknown
Right? Three I do think that there’s this fear that’s like, if I if I do allow you space to express your depression to me, I’m a little nervous about maybe that won’t be hot anymore. Maybe that won’t be like a feeling I know how to handle anymore. So as long as I just shove it away and push it down, then I don’t have to deal with the fact that you might become, you know, a little too safe from me.
00;34;58;25 – 00;35;17;19
Unknown
And then I’m not going to see you in the same way, and then we’re going to have an issue. Right. And, and a lot of it comes from the sort of like you mentioned, multi-generational, the idea of being mothered by your wife, by your, your wife taking care of you like a mother would take care of a son.
00;35;17;21 – 00;35;40;09
Unknown
And that’s where the line gets real weird, because you don’t want to do that. You don’t you don’t want to have that maternal instinct with your with your spouse. Because it just it’s weird you know. And so drawing that line is, is really difficult. But it’s all, it’s all it’s all in your head. It’s all just like head garbage from both perspective from both.
00;35;40;09 – 00;35;56;05
Unknown
So you know women will say I don’t want a mother. My husband, but then take great pride in making, has lunch every day and want to make sure that he’s taken care of. And I’ve given you what you need for the day, and I’ve packed you a healthy line. I’m using that as an example. That’s just one of many, right?
00;35;56;12 – 00;36;16;22
Unknown
Because I’m also doing that for my kid. And then men, I think tend to be quick to allow that to happen because they’re like, well, great. I love the feeling of feeling cared for, and I feel like I have a lot on my plate, and that’s one less thing that I have to do, right where that becomes imbalanced in a lot of time.
00;36;16;22 – 00;36;34;10
Unknown
And I think this is where some of that resentment chip on the shoulder or whatever comes in that doesn’t allow us to have that space for men is when I’m making your lunch and doing 17 other things during the day. I’m taking care of the kids. I’m taking care of the finances. I’m making sure that our vacations are all taken care of.
00;36;34;10 – 00;36;53;20
Unknown
I’m making sure that your family’s Christmas presents are being purchased, right? All of these things that need to happen. Then the tables start to get turned. And now I have a whole lot less compassion for the fact that you have a sinus problem or a man called brain. Is there is there a lack of appreciation for those things that you do for the family?
00;36;53;23 – 00;37;22;00
Unknown
Is that the root of it? Like you don’t feel appreciated, you don’t feel like you’re given any kind of thanks? Or would you say appreciation and acknowledgment are the same thing again? When I say no, when I say acknowledge something without appreciating it. But for me, they come hand in hand with my acknowledgment. I also show appreciation because I understand I was a stay at home dad for quite a few years with three kids in diapers.
00;37;22;03 – 00;37;42;25
Unknown
So I know what it’s like when when mothers talk about, you know, I’m like staying home mom or being a house housewife or whatever, that’s the hardest job in the world. I’ve been there. I’ve done that where my wife was the breadwinner and I had to deal with everything. I went grocery shopping, I did the cooking, I did everything around the house as well.
00;37;42;25 – 00;38;06;11
Unknown
Plus took the kids to there to school, took him to the doctor, took him to the dentist. I was 100% in their lives and she was not. And so I, I’ve been there, I know what it’s like. So having been on both sides then I’m like when, when I tell Kelly all the time like you are because she, she is the toughest son of a bitch I’ve ever met.
00;38;06;14 – 00;38;25;18
Unknown
She just had knee surgery last Friday. She’s back to work today. And and she’s like but here’s the thing. She’s kind of like her father. So she’s like I can, I can, I can I’m fine, I’m fine. I’m like it’s okay to be not fine. Because what are you going to do. You’re weren’t you walking on your, on your knee.
00;38;25;18 – 00;38;47;14
Unknown
That’s not healed yet. You’re going to make it worse. And where is that for the rest of us. She holds the family together. I freely admit that she does everything. If she’s not able to do that then we’re nowhere because I can’t, I can’t pay the bills with this business. I pay the business bills and buy groceries.
00;38;47;14 – 00;39;25;26
Unknown
That’s it. Yeah. That’s my contribution to the family. I mean besides other stuff. But financially do you think acknowledgment and appreciation are the same. No. For me they are because words of affirmation is my love language. But acknowledging that I’ve done something doesn’t mean anybody cares. About you values it right to same same with me. Like Philip will say, our house outside our outside of the home, the yard and stuff would not look like this if I didn’t do it.
00;39;26;02 – 00;39;51;12
Unknown
I’m like, you’re right. I’m acknowledging that. Do I appreciate it? Not really. I could care less. Really? Right. Because in my mind, there are more priorities that need to happen that don’t or that are half assed or get overlooked because he spends his time doing that because that’s his priority. So, you know, I acknowledge that you do it.
00;39;51;12 – 00;40;13;10
Unknown
Thank you. But we don’t need it. It’s not necessary. In my mind. You know, my my in-laws live on our block. They live four houses down. And, trust me, when my yard starts to look bad. Although I’ll let you know I hear about it. Sure, sure. My mother in law and me, like. But again, this is this is generational stuff, right?
00;40;13;13 – 00;40;31;26
Unknown
Right, right. Or that’s the question. That’s really a statement. Yeah. You know, I’ve been working 80 hours this week. Sure. Let me let me mow the lawn. There you go tonight. There you go. Clock. Right. And that’s how I feel. Right. The priorities. And it’s it’s a tough thing to navigate and it depends on where you’re for me I always comes back to values.
00;40;32;03 – 00;41;15;11
Unknown
Where are your values rooted. How aligned are you on your values. And have you defined your roles in your family? I value my garden. Great. No, I don’t. Interesting. And we have to weed it. Then we don’t value it anymore. I don’t think that if anyone, I don’t think anyone ever comes close to acknowledging my level of contribution, because I don’t think anyone understands it to the depth that I feel it.
00;41;15;14 – 00;41;50;11
Unknown
And so everything always just feels superficial. Which part? The the acknowledgment. Oh yeah. Okay. So I don’t care about the appreciation. The appreciation usually comes off as fake to me. Okay. The acknowledgment I don’t think ever really feels like a true acknowledgment, because I don’t think that it is seen at the depths at which it feels to me like I’ve contributed, if that makes sense.
00;41;50;11 – 00;42;12;04
Unknown
What would it take? I would think Philip would agree with you. Very much so. And he and I are similar in a lot of ways and yes, in this capacity. But I also feel that way from my lens. Because he’ll say to me every day, he’ll say to me, could you just do something around here?
00;42;12;06 – 00;42;34;24
Unknown
And I just look at him and I’m like, are you for real? He’s like, I just need your help. And I think to myself, you motherfucker. Right. What, what, you need me to hold your hand while you’re fucking lawn mowing. Like what. What do you need from me. Right, right, right. And what are you not seeing that I am doing to to keep it right.
00;42;34;24 – 00;42;50;10
Unknown
And that’s what then he’ll say. And so when I say that, he’s like, well, well I didn’t, I didn’t say, you don’t do anything, I just need your help because these things haven’t gotten done. I’m like, yeah, those are the things that the end of the list that I didn’t have time for today, and they’ll happen at another time.
00;42;50;15 – 00;43;09;05
Unknown
But here’s the long list of things that I did do. Tell me what you would have wanted me to have taken off the list. And he’ll say nothing gets taken off the list. It all needs to get done. And I’ll say, yeah, possible. That’s not how it works. How long you been married? Almost 20 years. Really. So it’s a and this is this is a daily conversation.
00;43;09;12 – 00;43;30;22
Unknown
Nothing changes. Nothing. It is. You got to go to counseling. Yeah. Very aware. How does that does that impact your ability to then have compassion for him when he gets upset that he lost, you know, no. Because none of it’s connected. It’s not connected. What is what does that mean? None of that is connected. None of that.
00;43;30;22 – 00;43;53;26
Unknown
I don’t hold grudges. I’m not a resentful person. When we have that conversation, the conversation happens and we move on. And that’s why the conversation happens every single day. Because we both are like over it. We say what we have to say and then we move along. Right? There is no that stuff is not brought into. So when he loses his, credit card, right.
00;43;53;26 – 00;44;07;26
Unknown
Can’t can’t find it. You’re not bringing anything into that conversation. You just genuinely don’t care that he can’t find his credit card, because this is not your problem. Oh, no, I happen I have a credit card. I’m like, oh, okay, let’s go see what the steps. What do we need? Where do we need to find it? Okay.
00;44;07;26 – 00;44;33;23
Unknown
What if he lost his vape? Don’t care or you’d help him find that and either help him find it or say just come in. Another one was. I’d rather you not talk about it. Just go find another one or buy another one. So do you feel you do make space for his emotional needs? Yes, but he doesn’t want to.
00;44;33;25 – 00;44;54;04
Unknown
Make you say to emotional? Yes, but he doesn’t want to go there. Correct. So great example is, this new job that he got, he has a lot of feelings about it. And it’s funny because I’ll ask questions are all given an opportunity to talk about it, but then he decides to steer the conversation in a different direction because that makes him uncomfortable.
00;44;54;06 – 00;45;07;20
Unknown
He doesn’t want to talk about it. But actually I’ll say do you think this is connected to blah blah blah blah. And he’ll be like what are you talking about? And he doesn’t, he doesn’t want to go there, which is very helpful in our relationship because neither do I at the end of the day. But I will give you space to do it.
00;45;07;20 – 00;45;23;14
Unknown
And then I’ll say, what do you need for me? Do you want me just to listen to you? Do you want me to give you advice? What do you need? And usually he just wants to talk. He just wants to vocalize things. Yeah. Not much. Yeah. He doesn’t want help for support. He just wants to do it out loud.
00;45;23;15 – 00;45;52;08
Unknown
Just wants to repeat the same thing over and over again. So. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I just find myself aware of I’m feeling a little bit bad for men more than I typically do. Maybe that’s what it comes down to for me. Again, I say that, and then I get mad at myself for saying that. Right? But I really I’m feeling.
00;45;52;10 – 00;46;14;29
Unknown
Badly that I personally may not be giving as much credence to the experience of men. So a good example would be I did post that on my post for Father’s Day and I was like, okay, come in peace. But just a quick question. Is anyone else experiencing this? And a few men responded and said, thanks for saying that because they experienced it.
00;46;15;06 – 00;46;42;09
Unknown
Because yeah, I agree with you. That isn’t a part of my experience. Right? Or men were liking the post, right? Like, and so then I was like, okay, so there is something here because these men are feeling seen. They almost need. I don’t know, like a woman to acknowledge it or speak up for it because they themselves aren’t in a place where they can say that yet, because maybe it takes away their man card to say it right, like I, I don’t want to.
00;46;42;11 – 00;47;01;01
Unknown
Again, I have such conflicting feelings about this and I want to come over here being an advocate for men, right. Because I’m definitely an advocate for men. You are like, well, I work for a men’s group. Absolutely an advocate for men.
00;47;01;03 – 00;47;30;01
Unknown
I’m not. That’s fine. I’m not. But I, I think I well it’s good to know who our friends are. I think I want to make space to try and be more. Supportive or, or understanding or. That makes no sense when you say you’re not an advocate for men because you’re raising a son to not align with the way that society.
00;47;30;04 – 00;47;50;14
Unknown
Treats, views, acts so that would whatever advocate of of of men, of men isn’t a good man. I don’t have a son. So it’s really. Am I just an advocate for the future of men? Right. Like, are you afraid? No. You know what? You know I’m not. I’m going to say it. She’s afraid that she’s going to come across as a non feminist.
00;47;50;16 – 00;48;19;07
Unknown
I don’t know if I identify as a feminist to begin with. Are you afraid that by saying you’re an advocate for men, that because you’re so literal and words matter, that somebody might hear? That I’m anti women, not anti, but not, you know what I mean? Like some something that feels different. I’m not worried someone might think that, I, I’m worried that I feel that for myself.
00;48;19;11 – 00;48;36;20
Unknown
I, I worry that if, if I am, you know, like here I am trying to make space for men to be better men, that I’m. I’m somehow hurting myself and other women I care about in the process. That’s what I mean. That’s exactly what I mean. So like, but I don’t I don’t care what people think about that.
00;48;36;20 – 00;49;03;09
Unknown
I’m like, oh no, someone’s going to call me out for whatever. Why supporting men? Why saying or feeling that you can support men changes anything you feel about supporting or loving women. Yeah. Why does that make it? That’s one or the other. That’s I think the topic of the show is, I think for whatever reason, they are connected and I don’t know if they’re connected just for me, if they’re connected for other women, if they’re connected.
00;49;03;11 – 00;49;35;24
Unknown
Oh, I don’t, I don’t know because they’re not connected for me at all. Right. Interesting at all. That’s why when we talk about gender roles, I do not have these feelings about it because they’re not connected. Interesting. And they are connected for me in some way that I don’t. And so I’m thinking about whatever that meme is that, the meme that maybe, like, equity is not a pie, you know, for right, for me doesn’t mean less rights for you or whatever it is for you.
00;49;35;25 – 00;49;59;14
Unknown
Just because you might as a man, you might cry at a movie, doesn’t mean you lose your man card like or is supporting men and helping them be better versions of themselves also supporting women? Yes, I think you’re right. I don’t know how. And I know you say that so many times about why you choose to raise your son the way you are.
00;49;59;16 – 00;50;24;04
Unknown
Yes, is very different for me with Carter. I don’t know why, but I feel like that’s something that I have control over. The illusion of control. Right? I feel like I have control over that, and I am. That is my legacy that I am passing on to. This world is as emotionally available, sound, empathic and aware of his surroundings, man as can possibly be, based in his given abilities.
00;50;24;04 – 00;50;44;08
Unknown
I feel like that is that’s the best in who to who. I don’t know, right? Well that I hope that that will impact plenty people, right? The man or woman that he ends up with? Exactly. It’s more the current existing men that are in the world that trigger that response to me. I also wanting to make that space.
00;50;44;08 – 00;51;15;09
Unknown
I also feel strongly, strongly that it’s because of who is in your privy. I think. I think if you were to witness, I mean, you did you you came to this men’s group and you saw things and you experienced things. I see the aftermath. I see the changes that happen in these people’s lives because we are connected on social media and they share these stories, and a lot of these men have their own businesses, and then they take what they learn and they offshoot it and they do whatever.
00;51;15;12 – 00;51;42;16
Unknown
So I’m kind stantly surrounded by all of that. Your experience with a lot of men is what you call white men. No white men in positions of power. And that is not my experience at all, because I left that world and wasn’t trying to break that glass ceiling. So I think that that’s where yeah, that frame of reference.
00;51;42;16 – 00;52;07;26
Unknown
Yeah. Very different. Very, very you have a lot of examples of men with an any part of an IQ and ability to be able to manage the emotionality of their children, their spouse, and run a business at the same time. Correct. And that’s that is the core epitome of this group of 250 men. Right? What they do at the daily.
00;52;08;03 – 00;52;31;24
Unknown
So it’s very different for me. And and I also didn’t grow up with a dad. I grew up with all women in my life. The only man in my life is my husband. That’s it. I also have girl children. So there. And Phillip is very feminine in a lot of ways. There’s just. It’s very different experience. Then then maybe your surroundings or what you have gone through in your life.
00;52;31;24 – 00;53;02;17
Unknown
So that might just be, I do think that’s a very important part of the conversation, because if I was doing what you are doing day in and day out all the time, maybe I feel that we are making space for care for men constantly. And maybe in that courtroom I would have seen a very different situation if there were men from the front row dads who showed up and saw this man and really brought him in to their community.
00;53;02;18 – 00;53;33;05
Unknown
That’s just not my experience or my purview makes so much sense. And I hope specifically because you’re raising your son to be a specific kind of person that you. Provide more of when you when you look at your surroundings, you need to put him in those surroundings. Otherwise it’s going to be a constant lesson. He’s not going to find a community and then he’s going to feel that internal battle.
00;53;33;05 – 00;53;57;26
Unknown
Yeah, yes, I see it all the time. Kelly up the street. And I joke about it where like, bro Carter just came out. He even flexes his voice because like what are we doing today. You know. And I’m like this just you just showed up. Oh it that right. It is more of an internal battle. And this is for a kid who is typically nine and trying to figure out how do I fit in with the rest of my surroundings.
00;53;57;26 – 00;54;26;12
Unknown
Right. But that is such a great point that then surroundings matter because of who he is so fitting in with. If he is going to the front row kids group, correct? Right. Versus going to soccer camp that is with a whole bunch of jock kids from, you know, wherever exactly that that environment matters, right? Because it was ultimately going to depict how he surrounds himself when he gets older.
00;54;26;16 – 00;54;51;11
Unknown
Yes. And who he chooses to be around. And I’m very aware right now that the energy he chooses to be around is dysfunctional, high energetic, not making good choices, fun, energy. His ADHD draws him to that like a moth to a flame. That will not change. That’s going to be really. That’s great. I think about it.
00;54;51;11 – 00;55;08;02
Unknown
I’m trying to get it out of him now. You can’t, you can’t it. You’re drawn to what you. Oh, well, tell me about that. I have you in my life. I have Marc in my life. I have Carter in my life. I have Scott in my life. I have Morgan in my life. I have Alex in my life.
00;55;08;02 – 00;55;31;20
Unknown
I have all these people in my life who all have ADHD diagnoses. And I’m constantly looking around like, what the hell is going on? So you tell me more about how we pick our surroundings, but I just mean as a, as a, as a kid like, and even as an adult you are drawn to what makes you feel good or I know, I know, I’m trying even it right out of even if it’s not the best decision.
00;55;31;21 – 00;55;57;18
Unknown
No it’s not, it’s not. Yeah I know and so it takes that conscious effort to make the change. And change is hard. Or to put some boundaries around being able to make those choices. But also maybe we don’t have 16 people like that in our life. Maybe we have three. Right. Or only and we can only handle so much.
00;55;57;20 – 00;56;16;11
Unknown
Maybe we’re aware of our own internal experience, even though other people might get ramped up. Right. How how do we still stay true to ourselves even though. Right. Like you might do party on party people in the library, right? But that doesn’t mean I’m squatting down. That’s like doing the thing at the same time. That’s right. Right. That’s right.
00;56;16;11 – 00;56;48;13
Unknown
So absolutely choices matter. All right. My affirmation card. I know that my journey will have highs and lows. I am aiming for progress. Okay. Progress for men battle harassment, masks for men. Everyone. I loved that. Me too. Is an empathy. Amazing. Well we’re amazing. I don’t know about all this empathy stuff. That’s fine. I accept you wherever you are.
00;56;48;20 – 00;57;11;13
Unknown
Oh, God, I love you. I love you too. And if you love us, please like and subscribe to More Love the Power of Empathy podcast wherever you get your podcasts. See you next time.
