00;00;00;00 – 00;00;34;13
Unknown
So though the whole story is about the mom fighting for justice for her daughter, who she’s convinced is dead, and this man is adamantly saying, I did not do that. And how dare you say that I’m doing this right when I’m not? That was my daughter. And whatever this, the bio mom goes to the point of getting billboards put up, like right outside of this man’s house hanging fliers.
00;00;34;13 – 00;00;51;22
Unknown
And she’s and she’s very definitive and saying, I know he killed my daughter. And I hope this makes him highly uncomfortable. I hope he knows we’re not giving up.
00;00;51;24 – 00;01;14;09
Unknown
Hey, it’s me. Erin, Thanks for joining us on the More Love podcast. Do not tell Rebecca, but this podcast is about empathy. She likes people to think she’s dead inside. But the truth is, she’s a big time feeler who has truly helped me uncover that empathy is my superpower. Here she comes. Hey, bestie. Hi, love. What are you doing?
00;01;14;10 – 00;01;38;06
Unknown
Oh, just getting ready to host a podcast. A podcast about what? Our life. Our life is. Best friends who are more like sisters. Oh, yay, I love us and I can’t wait to share our stories of the world, especially the ones that involve us pushing each other right to be our most authentic selves. Oh, man. Okay.
00;01;38;09 – 00;02;04;29
Unknown
Scott. Yeah. I felt judged this morning by the woman down the hall. Who? The one who makes the corn bean salad by Nadine. She’s not a judging type. Well, I was sitting in my car talking to Rebecca because, of course, we had to talk on the phone before we got to the podcast. And I was sitting there, and then she pulls in and she pulls in right next to me.
00;02;05;02 – 00;02;23;09
Unknown
And now I have some feelings about that because the whole parking lot is open. That’s probably her standard spot, which is what you would do. You only sit in the same spot, park in the same spot. I can accept that. Okay. That’s her usual spot. I can accept that. Okay. And so I. That must have been like the look on my face when I looked over.
00;02;23;09 – 00;02;48;27
Unknown
Was. Was the judgment I had about why you need to park right there. But then she, she gave the look back and I didn’t like that. Oh and it’s matching your energy. And then she got out and she had got a laundry hamper out of the, the side and linens. She was struggling to get it out because she had parked so close to my car.
00;02;48;29 – 00;03;16;03
Unknown
So I had feelings about that too. But I felt I felt like almost like I parked here because this is my spot. And now I am annoyed that I can’t get my linens out in the second. So I’m trying to think of the parking spots. Did you park in the handicapped spot? No. Okay. Next to it. Not that anyone could tell you her spot.
00;03;16;04 – 00;03;33;19
Unknown
You parked in my normal spot. I’m not parked in my normal spot today. And then. So. And she parked next to that. So. Yes. So. Yeah, that’s her normal spot. Well, I’m up then. Don’t park so close to me. Or maybe the face was confused of why Scott wasn’t there. Okay, that could have been it. And then she’s pissed because she brought a bunch of food.
00;03;33;22 – 00;03;52;10
Unknown
Why is that? What? Why is this blond hussy and Scott. Yeah. And then she’s probably like, is she the bitch that cackles? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Which she can’t figure out which one Cackling. I know, loud bitches. I know it. I know she’s like, you don’t look like a calculus counselor. I look like a cochlear. Cochlear? Like a cochlear.
00;03;52;10 – 00;04;13;15
Unknown
Yeah, a cochlear locksmith. But I gave the eye. And then she gave the eye back. And then she was annoyed that she couldn’t get her own laundry basket out. I mean, so I just needed to bring that up so I could. You put it to bed. Should we? At after this, should we go in and see a park job, or are you confident that you.
00;04;13;15 – 00;04;34;12
Unknown
Oh, don’t talk about her park job. I mean, I’m sorry. We have video tape to park time. Yeah, I’m sure I got. Yeah. How long have we been working together? Slide rule out. Let’s ask Karen what she doesn’t do. Well. Okay. Because the list of what she does do well is so long, we can only get done to the list.
00;04;34;12 – 00;04;52;13
Unknown
That doesn’t do well, then. Parking’s not on there. Yeah, we can’t park. Make parking 100% is not something that goes in the column of things I can’t do. Well, silly me, she’s got. Cause, like, we’ve been working together for years now. We don’t. I mean, parallel parking. I know, but we haven’t sat in a parked car yet together, so.
00;04;52;14 – 00;05;05;00
Unknown
Yes, we have. Have we? Yeah. For my birthday and my outing. Yeah, but I was in the car so I couldn’t see how well you parked. Oh, you mean side by side, parked. Parked up. Okay, I don’t know.
00;05;05;02 – 00;05;21;25
Unknown
So I just wanted to let you know that that happened. I had to get that out of the way. All right, well, I got something cool to talk about today, I think. I don’t know, you got to start us with some hippie ville. You going to do it now and then? We’ll see. If it has anything to do with what we’re going to talk about with what we’re going to do, this is a new card.
00;05;21;28 – 00;05;44;26
Unknown
That’s the the Two of Pentacles. And it’s a fox who’s lifting, barbells with his hands and his feet. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So the pentacles. I had to look it up. Two of Pentacles. Two of Pentacles and the Pentacles means, It represents earth. So it’s the realm of health, wealth, and manifestation. Which is interesting because when you called me, we were talking about money.
00;05;44;28 – 00;06;03;00
Unknown
And I just shared a story with you about the people that I was with this week are super into health and I just want to manifest all amazing things in my life. And you talked about a $200 steak that you ate. I did, I did actually it was 185, but I just rounded up to 200 because I’m assuming someone else paid for the steak.
00;06;03;01 – 00;06;34;04
Unknown
Oh, honey, honey. Mama, mama, mama brought snacks in her bag because she can’t. She can’t even go to the to the Chick-Fil-A. Okay. And two of Pentacles. There’s an empty, abandoned day planner out there somewhere, and it’s got your name on it. The dude. So this what, you eat these? I hate them so much to do. So discs asks you to maintain balance like juggling many different balls duties and queen size.
00;06;34;07 – 00;07;01;20
Unknown
Do whatever you can to keep your busy brain from scattering and manage your time with some good old fashioned to do lists. In the face of this much responsibility, one day mundane tasks become just as important as the main events. Congrats on the Nobel Prize! But did you put the laundry in the dryer? Funny story. Do you? You know how we had speaking of to do lists, do you know how we use those flip chart large pieces of paper to do things?
00;07;01;21 – 00;07;24;22
Unknown
Yeah. Well, the other day, actually, it was less no, not last Monday. It was the Monday before. So because I left last Monday to go to Texas, the money before I took all of my scattered ad lists and I put them together and I created columns on one of those huge piece of paper. Not only that, but then I associated Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.
00;07;24;22 – 00;07;49;16
Unknown
It’s like I even created like, here’s what I’m going to do during these chunks of time, right through all these things. And I’m writing in my normal sized training, like on college ruled. Yeah. No paper guidelines. Yeah. No, it’s little like I’m reading the normal. Okay. The thing is, I wish I still had it. The thing is I’ll get to the end of the week getting prepared to go to Texas.
00;07;49;18 – 00;08;07;10
Unknown
Not one thing is one thing. No, not one thing left. Do I rip it off, fold it all up and put it in my bag to go? Oh, sure. Do, sure do. Okay, get to Texas and we have a working day when we’re there with the whole team. And I was like, all right, everybody, here’s what I have to do.
00;08;07;17 – 00;08;33;01
Unknown
They put you all out that big ass list. Guess what? You did one thing that was because I was doing a live event. I did all of my standard, but then I have to be in the room to be available. Whatever. I knocked out the whole thing. Wow. Over the course of three days. Wow. Do I have 75 35,000 emails in my email with more things to do?
00;08;33;01 – 00;08;49;25
Unknown
Absolutely. Yeah, right. But I got all that stuff. That’s the worst part. That was a big deal for me, because normally I’m doing what we need to do right now and not getting to all the backstab. And you still didn’t have a feeling of accomplishment when you got to the end of it? Not even close. I know we talk about that all the time.
00;08;49;25 – 00;09;12;12
Unknown
You’re at 80. Aaron, Aaron says to me, don’t you feel great when you check things off? The dude to do list? I said, absolutely not because it just gets filled up with more. There is never a sense of done. Never. Not for me. I will do something. Realize it wasn’t on the To-Do list, write it on the to do list and then cross it off just to get that sense of accomplishment.
00;09;12;12 – 00;09;29;09
Unknown
Yeah, I don’t feel that way at all. In fact, I’ve already started a new large a new large like to do to do it. There was a lot of things that happened in that card. One, it was talking about fitness, it was talking about money which as you said were two things we talked about.
00;09;29;12 – 00;09;51;12
Unknown
And I see that it was talking about laundry, which brings up what happened to me in the parking lot that we just stuck. That’s right. It’s all tied together. Just happened there. Oh my gosh, that’s funny. What’s her name? They been. It’s got. Oh Nadine okay okay. See I you know it’s hard for me to I can’t take sides in that situation because I’m close with Nadine.
00;09;51;12 – 00;10;22;16
Unknown
So this is not a personality swap. No, I know I just when, when, you know how it’s difficult when two people you, like have some sort of a, whatever it is, some confrontation or conflict, like, oh, no, I don’t. Who’s right, I do. You feel that same way? She’s you first. You you must like this. I feel that that is that is probably the universal response to what you just said.
00;10;22;18 – 00;10;41;02
Unknown
Like everybody, you take 20 people and put in a room and 19 are going to make that face. Even a dog would make that face, I think, well, just tell me who’s right. I’ll tell you who the right person is in the situation. Let me know what it is. Did I say you were wrong? No. But you can go look at my parking job and let me know.
00;10;41;05 – 00;11;01;05
Unknown
I don’t have to look at your parking job. I do compare it to mine. I don’t even think I’m in the lane. And the lines. All right, I think I’m over to. I think it took up to. Right. She’s. She’s parked like this. Yeah. Just she’s perpendicular. I also have zero concept of how long my front end is.
00;11;01;10 – 00;11;18;26
Unknown
I think it’s way longer than it is. So I never pull on where. Oh, way in the back. Yeah. My. Yeah. As always, stick it out. Yeah, I get all right, here’s the question. I’m posing for you fools today. Okay.
00;11;18;28 – 00;11;51;02
Unknown
Is empathy ever stupidity? Is empathy ever stupidity? Scooby doesn’t know either. And I’m going to give you an example from something I watched. I mean, I have a gut reaction. Oh, you do, but I’m taking a page out of your book. Oh, and and working it through. Oh, wow. What? And my going to hold my response to the end.
00;11;51;03 – 00;12;13;14
Unknown
Okay, okay. It will probably be the same person worded more nicely. Wow. Yeah that’s great. I let me just let me see how well I know you. Okay. And when I say is empathy ever stupidity in your in your brain. You just went yeah it’s always stupid. No. No one should ever be doing it. No no no no no no no no no no no no no that’s not okay.
00;12;13;14 – 00;12;36;14
Unknown
No okay. So I can give you a little more credit then. Yeah. No I don’t think, I don’t think that is empathy ever stupidity. The other way to word this would be can empathy ever be stupid? And I’m going to go with this thing I watched last night that really I over identified with quite a bit. Okay.
00;12;36;16 – 00;13;10;28
Unknown
And, and I, I’m still struggling with to this day. Okay. I can’t remember the name of this thing that I watched. Of course, it was a murder show. Okay, okay. But this man and this woman were married, and they adopted a little girl at the age of ten months. The little girl ends up going missing at the age of 14, and now it’s 30 some odd years later, they still have never been able to.
00;13;11;02 – 00;13;32;06
Unknown
Well, at this point in the story, they had never been able to find her. Wow. 14 okay, the can we I have a follow question, which sounds dumb. Yeah. Do you know where they lived? Yes. Was it in the in this country? It was Michigan. Okay. So is in the United States? Yes. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right.
00;13;32;08 – 00;13;58;16
Unknown
So why are you laughing? Is that still relevant to you? I mean, if she’s in Greece, in Ukraine, that’s what happened. Well, no, I just enough. Where are they in Afghanistan? I mean, shit, that’s like day in, day out. Now, Michigan. Okay. Michigan. Michigan, Michigan. So then bio mom who is the mom who gave her up for adoption?
00;13;58;16 – 00;14;09;10
Unknown
Thank you for clarifying what bio mom means. I thought there was like some sort of social media person that I should know about. Like who’s bio like octo mom.
00;14;09;12 – 00;14;24;29
Unknown
I don’t know, in this moment, if you’re making fun of me, I think you’re really. You know what? I’m bio mom. Is mom okay? You could just. I don’t know, That’s making fun of me. Are you making fun of me, Scott? No, I’m not making fun of you, I am. Oh, yes. Yes, Scott’s actually appreciative that I was.
00;14;24;29 – 00;14;47;13
Unknown
Now he’s making fun of you. He just doesn’t want to make you feel bad. Whatever. You guys so. Well, joke’s on you guys because I’m neurodivergent, and these. I’m going to tell you the end of the story right now. Like I always do. Yeah. Okay, listen to me. I am. Good God. I should do bio mom, not Octomom bio mom a.k.a birth mom.
00;14;47;15 – 00;15;16;23
Unknown
Yes. She sets out to find her daughter when she ends up finding out that she had been missing. And bio mom does this whole bunch of research and comes to the conclusion that the person who killed her daughter because she’s convinced she’s dead, okay, is the adoptive father, and that the adoptive there’s a lot of missing pieces here.
00;15;16;23 – 00;15;44;11
Unknown
Okay. Adoptive father, there’s no way that this was a one and done incident, that he must be a serial killer. This is what she’s. And and she goes so far as to say the girl is buried in the backyard. Because I did Google map images year after year after year. And this is the one spot that’s continually changing in their backyard garden or something.
00;15;44;17 – 00;16;04;26
Unknown
Okay, so, what was the okay, well, pause here for questions. So I need the name of this. So I need to watch this bio mom like just comes out of the woodwork. So she decided she wanted to find her her daughter, that she gave up for adoption at ten months old. And how did she know that was her daughter that was missing?
00;16;04;26 – 00;16;28;02
Unknown
Because it’s just an open adoption. Did she find out when she went to look that the daughter was missing? Is that she found out okay? Yes. Why do you mean? You mean when she turned 18? Because. Isn’t there rules? Isn’t there rules in adoption? Especially if it’s closed? You can’t. I think it depends on the state. That’s another reason why I would want to know where it is.
00;16;28;02 – 00;16;53;06
Unknown
I don’t really know. I can’t actually remember in this moment why bio mom went looking for the daughter. But I do know that bio mom was very young like 1415 what she had when she had her and did not want to give her up for adoption. I was forced, but by your mom’s own mom said you’re not fit to be a mother.
00;16;53;06 – 00;17;15;15
Unknown
You need to. This is, of course, daughter up for adoption. And she. I remember her saying that she was told her daughter’s going to go to the best of the best family because, she’s only ten months old and there’s so many adoptive parents who are looking for, babies. Oh, so this wasn’t even in the hospital. I’m I know I birth.
00;17;15;15 – 00;17;32;18
Unknown
Do you live a long? She raised her for the first ten of the first ten months, and it was clear that this wasn’t working. Well, not to her. It was clear to her mom. Well, because she the child was like, yes, I’m getting anxious about. I’m going to have to teach her how to walk, and I’m going to have to teach it how to be on solid foods.
00;17;32;18 – 00;17;48;20
Unknown
And like, yes, it was really overwhelming. But by your mom’s, mom was like, you’re not fit to be doing any of this. You need to give this baby up for adoption. It will have a better life. And convinced by your mom that that was in the baby’s best interest. There’s this sound familiar? Into the fire, the lost Daughter.
00;17;48;25 – 00;18;11;10
Unknown
Yes. Okay. Text me that. I’m watching. A two part documentary recounts her canyons yearlong search for Adria Baumann. Yup. Nay, Alexis Badger. Yeah. Who went missing in 1989 because she named her Alexis. And the harrowing revelations that culminated in her belief that Alexis had been murdered by her adoptive father. Can’t wait. Okay, okay. I’m all in island. Keep going.
00;18;11;14 – 00;18;40;07
Unknown
Okay. All right. Any more questions? I’m sure, I’m sure. All our questions from the audience, doctor. Anyone? So that means you got it. Oh. They were. Oh, oh, I’ll talk to Doctor Oz here. So I’m watching this. And the mom, the bio mom is a bit intense. Like, she’s very definitive. Kind of like someone else, you know? And she’s just a very much like.
00;18;40;07 – 00;19;15;16
Unknown
You need to look at this. This is what’s happening. They ended up going to a an event that was in Michigan for missing and exploited children. And the adoptive mom ended up being there and Kathy bio mom ended up being there. And there ended up being this massive argument that happened because Kathy bio mom, was yelling at the adoptive mom and basically saying, your husband is the one who did this, and what was her reasoning?
00;19;15;16 – 00;19;51;13
Unknown
Did it ever say why she felt so strongly about the husband? I believe she started to look into the background of these people who got her child okay, because she was, I believe, if I’m remembering correctly, trying to figure out, who ultimately ended up with her daughter and this man had been in prison previously for attempted it was assault with attempted an intent to murder.
00;19;51;20 – 00;20;10;03
Unknown
So this was not a formal adoption. This was a the parents gave him to anybody? No, I think it was a formal adoption, which is what made this so crazy by your mom was like, how are we? You’re not doing back. I’m have. If you’ve done any type of background check, you see that this man’s been in prison.
00;20;10;03 – 00;20;38;15
Unknown
You see that this man has a past assault history. You see that this man had, the assault, I believe, was on a young child. Like, what the hell are we doing here? So she started to be like, nope, nope, all of this. This is just making way too much sense about what was really happening. So the the whole story is about the mom fighting for justice for her daughter, who she’s convinced is dead.
00;20;38;18 – 00;21;08;00
Unknown
And this man is adamantly saying, I did not do that. And how dare you say that I’m doing this right when I’m not? That was my daughter. And whatever this, the bio mom goes to the point of getting billboards put up, like right outside of this man’s house, hanging fliers. And she’s and she’s very definitive and saying, I know he killed my daughter.
00;21;08;00 – 00;21;37;06
Unknown
And I hope this makes him highly uncomfortable. I hope he knows we’re not giving up. Can’t you see we’re for libel? No. Freedom of speech? No, no, that’s not true. Sure it. He didn’t say it. Didn’t say the posters didn’t say this man killed my daughter. They said missing this girl is missing. Reward, Lord. But she can go around verbalizing what she feels, and he can’t sue her for defamation of character.
00;21;37;08 – 00;22;02;07
Unknown
I mean, he could, but she he ain’t gonna get anything right, is she? Unless she’s got money and insurance and whatever. I mean, and I don’t know what reaches that. The level of defamation of character. Right. You’re allowed to say pretty much whatever you want. Anyone. You can’t you can’t write about it. If you write about something like that, that’s that’s not clearly provable.
00;22;02;09 – 00;22;27;29
Unknown
And maybe we can ask Joe, the resident lawyer. But yeah, you write about it. It’s libel. Which means if I mean, there’s been plenty of stories where people called someone something and they were sued because they couldn’t prove it. And if you can’t prove it, then it’s not, you know what I mean. It’s fascinating. So but at the same time write down on this piece of paper right now you’re a massive bitch right.
00;22;28;00 – 00;23;03;01
Unknown
That’s right. And then they’re like prove it. All right. And then I go and prove it. That counselor. Well, I mean, I think again, maybe there’s like definitions between opinion and slander, acts of murderous bitch. Then there could be. Yeah. Yeah, I don’t know. Interesting. Okay. So it finally comes out that. This this wife has stuck by her husband for this entire time because she’s like, this is not there is no way.
00;23;03;01 – 00;23;31;24
Unknown
This is not the man that I know. And that’s what they are. So finally it comes out that this man ends up getting arrested for. For what? It’s probably something stupid arrested in conjunction with a murder, assault and murder. The sexual assault and murder that happened in Virginia right then and there. It wasn’t an old one. It was an old time.
00;23;31;27 – 00;23;53;10
Unknown
Oh, it was it from years. And it was an old ago. Okay, so it wasn’t a current. No. So because they were looking into this man, they started to find out that he was in Virginia at the time that this murder happened, even though he absolutely wasn’t supposed to be. He was in the military, and he ended up getting off the boat or something.
00;23;53;10 – 00;24;15;08
Unknown
And he was in that area, in the area at the time. Now this I’m sorry, super drunk. Apparently my questions like normal. Was he married to that woman at the time? Yeah. So he’s been married to that woman for this since young? Pretty much the entire time he’s been married 50 years. Okay, y’all okay? Very long. She’s just living her housewife life and blinders and okay.
00;24;15;09 – 00;24;46;08
Unknown
Protecting and you know, whatever. So he gets arrested and they show him in the interrogation room with the man in the, the the police officer is like I’ve been every time you’ve turned around and you’ve wondered if someone was looking for you. That was me. Stop. He says it in the, in the attack. It’s you. It’s like I know, I know that’s the I loved it.
00;24;46;10 – 00;25;06;11
Unknown
And the guy, the guy is like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. He’s like that breath on the back of here next to it, when you weren’t sure if we were getting close or not. That was me. And it’s just for this one murder. This guy’s like, wait, you know, what the hell you talking about? And he is like, you know why we’re here.
00;25;06;14 – 00;25;23;20
Unknown
You’ve been waiting for this day to happen for a third 30 years. And he’s like, and I’m gonna end it for you. I’m gonna end the wonder about when that day is going to come. Because that day today, and now he’s in his 50s, 60s, like, he’s like, yeah, this man is he’s not. Because it’s been 30 years.
00;25;23;20 – 00;25;50;12
Unknown
It’s got to be it late 60s. And at this point the child has been missing for so long. So if that was 1989 when she went missing, he was caught by this breathing fire by, no, not police, a police officer. What year like 2019? They they all happened at the same time. So then 889 is when she went away.
00;25;50;13 – 00;26;13;10
Unknown
Oh, the murder happened. The the original murder happened. I think, maybe like a year or two before the girl went missing. Oh, so. So he was an established father. The Virginia murder happened first. But in that time, within a couple of years. So he he was in the military, active military witness when he was raising a teenager.
00;26;13;11 – 00;26;36;05
Unknown
I don’t know, or this was like when he was 18. Okay. Because these are clarifying questions that would make a difference in my mind. It’s all again, fuzzy for me right now. I’m getting fuzzy. Okay. I guess it’s like, because all I want to talk about is, is empathy stupid, right? And I don’t know the details. It’s like it’s like I watch it because I also I’m like scrolling my phone and eating chips while I’m watching this.
00;26;36;05 – 00;26;55;08
Unknown
And so that was probably a time where I was like filling up my Gatorade or something, I don’t know. But within a certain amount of time these things had happened. Okay. And then 30 years go past and now he’s being called into the interrogation room for this murder of this other woman. I want her to call her Kathleen.
00;26;55;11 – 00;27;33;13
Unknown
Okay. And his story is essentially that he was drunk and he thought maybe they had some money laying around. And so he went into the house and thought the house was empty because there were no cars and there were no lights on. But when he got in there, the woman who was in the bedroom started screaming and he had had a pen in his hand to try and open the window lock and had somehow shoved the pen here because he shows the guy shoves under under the right into the rib, and that ultimately she ends up dying.
00;27;33;15 – 00;27;58;01
Unknown
And the guy, the guy is like, nope, no, that’s not what happens. And so they end up then revealing that this woman had been brutally stabbed 7 or 8 times with a pen with a knife. Oh yeah. And it just terrible things that happened to this woman. She had also been sexually assaulted. Oh, all of this stuff. They found his seminal fluid on the comforter.
00;27;58;07 – 00;28;29;07
Unknown
Yep. Okay, so part of how they discovered this was through the genealogy, right? Is that the criminal genealogy thing, DNA. Yeah. So that’s ultimately how they ended up bringing him to justice was through that process. Wow. So, his wife. Okay, so now they’re they’re in the room, and this man’s wife gets brought in and gets told your husband is being charged with the murder of this person, Kathleen.
00;28;29;10 – 00;28;52;15
Unknown
And that it happened this many years ago. There was also a sexual assault. And she says that’s not the man I know. That did not happen. And she’s continuing to be like, no, this there’s no way, you know, and he is continuing to say, no, I didn’t do this. And then they’re like, well, you have we have DNA evidence.
00;28;52;17 – 00;29;20;13
Unknown
And he is like, the story that happened was I went in there to, get some money, but that was it. Like, I definitely didn’t kill this woman. And the wife is very, nothing to see here at this at this point. Right. And I found myself being able to relate with that at that point. Like, you just found out that your husband sexually assaulted someone in murdered them.
00;29;20;17 – 00;29;36;29
Unknown
There’s no. You didn’t have any indication of this. You’ve asked him probably a million different times. And it didn’t happen that he said it didn’t happen. Right. So I I’m with her in this moment where she’s saying, your daughter went missing and she’s still with him.
00;29;37;02 – 00;29;57;12
Unknown
Yes. Because they’ve been searching together for her. Right. Okay. I’ll hold a hold. My comments to the end. They’re searching together for her. And he’s been very clear he didn’t have anything to do with that. Okay. But then you got Kathy over here who’s like nope, nope. Just so we’re clear. So she now finds out he’s getting pulled in for this other murder.
00;29;57;13 – 00;30;16;22
Unknown
Yeah. And her response is it’s just not time yet. Just not justice for my daughter yet. But it’ll come out. It’ll come out. Give, give, give it time. Oh, this is trooper. This is the the oh my God, give it time. Give it time. Right. Yeah. So. So this woman, I can relate with her at this moment because she’s not believing that this is really happening.
00;30;16;22 – 00;30;46;03
Unknown
And that this is not there’s no possible way that this could have happened. Okay. So it then starts to come out more that they know that he killed his daughter, and they need to get this woman, the wife, to be in the know about the fact that he has killed his daughter. Time out legit killed or they’re they’re convinced he’s killed.
00;30;46;05 – 00;31;07;26
Unknown
Convinced. Okay. So at this point, there’s no body, there’s no evidence, there’s no nothing. Right. So but they the this is the police feel we need to we need to get her on our side. Because the only way he’s going to come confess or give any sort of indication that we could nail him is by you. Doing the quote unquote interrogation, participating in some way shape or form.
00;31;08;03 – 00;31;43;07
Unknown
Absolutely. So she ends up, they end up saying I know you want to stay in Michigan and you don’t want to be extradited to Virginia. You’re gonna serve the rest of your life in prison for the murder of this person. And we don’t make you any promises. But if you tell us what happened to your daughter, and you get closure for your wife, then we will consider keeping you in Michigan so that you can at least see your wife raped easier.
00;31;43;07 – 00;32;05;19
Unknown
She wasn’t. She’s in her 70s. You know. She’s not driving a Virginia. Yeah, right. Yeah. If she even wants to see. Right. Well, that’s what you would think. Well, right. So she then decides that she’s going to ask him question and he just continues to say, no, I did not know. I did not know. I did not what?
00;32;05;20 – 00;32;31;04
Unknown
I’ve been looking for her for this many years. I don’t even know if she’s gone. I don’t like, like I don’t know what you want me to say. I didn’t do this. So the wife starts to say he didn’t do it. He didn’t do it like he. If this is our child, we loved this child somewhere in the mix here, he decides, get my wife in here, bring her into the room.
00;32;31;07 – 00;33;01;17
Unknown
And he says, you better have the cameras rolling. The wife comes in and he says, honey, I killed our daughter. She was in our bedroom and she looked like she was about to leave. And I said, you’re not going anywhere. And she said, yes, I am. And I hit her and she fell down the stairs. And when I went to the bottom of the stairs to check on her, her neck didn’t look right.
00;33;01;20 – 00;33;32;02
Unknown
And so I took her and I put her in the garage, and I wrapped her up in a beautiful white blanket as what he’s saying to her. And I left her body out there for a little bit while I called in and said that she was a missing person. And then I went to the extent of sprinkling cinnamon and cloves and all these other different smells all over the the white tarp, the white sheet that I wrapped her up in.
00;33;32;05 – 00;33;57;28
Unknown
And then I buried her in a beautiful cemetery plot next to our house. And I couldn’t tell you because I couldn’t break your heart because we’ve been looking for her for 30 years. And as long as you still had hope that something didn’t happen, then I couldn’t. I couldn’t take that away from you. Unless this woman in this moment is bawling.
00;33;58;01 – 00;34;39;05
Unknown
She says, don’t admit to something you didn’t do. And he says, I did it, babe, I did it, I did it. I’m so sorry. And now they’re both bawling their eyes out. And she says something along the lines of, why did you lie to me for all of these years? And I still love you, and essentially is saying, I can’t believe that you’ve had to hold on to this for all of these years, instead of just telling me.
00;34;39;07 – 00;35;08;25
Unknown
And she’s barely vacillating between anger and resentment and like, but I still love you, and it’s in God’s hands now, and we’ll figure it out together. And this man goes on to say that he had to cut the body up because it wouldn’t fit in a container that he was trying to put it in. And the woman just continues to be like, don’t admit to something you didn’t do.
00;35;08;25 – 00;35;32;15
Unknown
No, this can’t be true or whatever, but still has this undying love and empathy and compassion for this man and what it is that he’s had to go through all of these years knowing that he had killed their their daughter and wasn’t able to say anything about it. Now it’s like a split screen happens. And then you got Kathy.
00;35;32;17 – 00;35;57;24
Unknown
Kathy comes in, you fill Kathy in on what what’s gone on. And Kathy is like, what an idiot. I can’t, she’s losing her. She’s just like, these people are certifiable. I can’t, you know, whatever. Yeah. So ultimately, he ends up admitting to the murder of the child, the murder of this other woman there. All the police officers are all very clear that he has murdered other people.
00;35;57;25 – 00;36;43;14
Unknown
Because that first murder with the seven stab wounds was not the first time he had ever murdered someone, okay? He’s murdered people. He’s been lying to his wife the entire time. And I can’t stop thinking about this woman. And. And, it just brings up for me. Can empathy ever be stupid? Because where does empathy and compassion and, like, commitment and devotion and seeing him as a human that you’ve known for 50 years and knowing that he’s done these really horrendous things, where does like when is it appropriate for that to stop and for the anger and resentment?
00;36;43;14 – 00;37;21;07
Unknown
And I can’t believe that you did this and and like more empathy for the daughter and what the daughter had to go through. And the reason I bring this up is I think I could see myself being the woman who was really trying to relate or understand empathically through this horrendously horrific act that had happened. And I was disgusted at myself and confused at myself and like trying to figure out why anyone in the entire world would feel that way.
00;37;21;09 – 00;37;40;12
Unknown
And I think listeners would be real quick to be like, absolutely not. That was not my trial that there. If that was my child, there’s no way I would ever. I think people are real quick to say, absolutely not, but you got to watch this, this documentary. Oh, I would have reacted the exact way she did. Really? One absolutely, really.
00;37;40;13 – 00;38;09;19
Unknown
But when as you’re talking about it, I think it’s it’s a timing thing. Because they had gone through this journey and he admitted my whole goal was to keep giving you hope. Right? So she has this baggage she’s bringing with her that is xyzzy, right. However, if it if it came out within like a couple days, a couple of weeks or whatever, I think the reaction might have been different from her.
00;38;09;22 – 00;38;28;14
Unknown
At least Christmas would have been long. He’s been manipulating. I’m wondering, I’m wondering especially if she’s that type of person that’s like a Pollyanna right. A Pollyanna in addition to just wants to be loved. It’s very clear to me that her love that she has with her husband was the end all be all. It was the only thing that ever mattered.
00;38;28;15 – 00;38;54;11
Unknown
Exactly. So I wouldn’t define it as stupidity. I would define it as a trauma response or something. Because if she were to say that that was her immediate reaction, my guess is digesting all of those things. Then we start having different kinds of as they start reaction to cell phone calls that they started to she started to get angry.
00;38;54;11 – 00;39;14;19
Unknown
Why didn’t you say these things to me? But then what’s fascinating is he would say something like, you’re just going to have to make up your mind yourself how what you want to do next. In her responses. Well, I don’t need you to be mad at me. Yeah. And I’m like, that’s that’s a that’s a trauma. That’s a trauma response.
00;39;14;20 – 00;39;34;21
Unknown
What do you what he probably he murdered your child. Yeah. But I mean, if you probably go in and psychoanalyze their relationship and bet you he has sort of a cult leader type of, of control over her. Or he picked her specifically because he knew he could get away with these kinds of things. Right. Like he can totally manipulate her 100%.
00;39;34;21 – 00;39;53;04
Unknown
I mean it, we all we all watch those murder shows all the time. And how many times has that come into play. That’s true. Where where the wife is like, you know, manipulating the other person that they’re oblivious to, oblivious all the signs, they don’t see it. And then when they’re when they’re confronted with the truth, they can’t believe it.
00;39;53;05 – 00;40;25;00
Unknown
They just can’t. And it substitute murder with addiction. Yeah, whatever. Or. Yeah, cheating or stealing money or you know what a substitute with anything that’s just bad. Not not guy. Yeah, but why not? Butts up against for me is where is that line. And my line is not at all the line that should be used in these types of discussions.
00;40;25;02 – 00;40;51;25
Unknown
But when it was that extreme of an example and it was so much in my face that I was like the natural reaction to this is to shut it down immediately and say, I need to acknowledge that I’ve been absolutely brainwashed, gaslit, and manipulated our entire marriage. And I can’t trust anything that you’ve said that that that would be a completely, in my mind, normal response.
00;40;51;28 – 00;41;11;00
Unknown
And yet I could still see myself reacting the way that this woman dead. I think it said at the end that he did ultimately get extradited back to Virginia because they were like, none of this is going to be on your terms. Thanks for the information. We know we told you it wasn’t going to be, you know, we’d like to give in, but nope, you’re going to go to Virginia.
00;41;11;00 – 00;41;28;28
Unknown
You don’t get to have any ounce of happiness in your life. So he really did kill the girl. Yeah, okay. And, you know, out of nowhere, she was in the same place. He pleaded no contest in the place card, right where the mom knew, where she said where she went through these images. Yep. That’s exactly where they found her.
00;41;29;00 – 00;41;57;17
Unknown
In the bio. Mom had to give the DNA sample to confirm that it was officially her daughter, and it came back 100% certainty. And that’s how it was. This kind of tells a little bit of a story about the the Michigan authorities, how they probably shouldn’t let this go, because I was reading a little bit while you were talking and the there’s a story in a paper there where she had accused him of abuse.
00;41;57;20 – 00;42;16;25
Unknown
Yeah. And there was a neighbor who’s who said that, like she accused him of abuse. And the mother said that’s a lie. So it was there. And the fact that that was out and the authorities, I don’t know if they just, if it just ran into a cold case and they couldn’t prove anything and it just stopped there.
00;42;16;27 – 00;42;39;19
Unknown
But that’s kind of weird. But that’s what’s interesting is everything has to be run by policies and procedures. Right. Like I can’t just go up to somebody of authority and say, I think something’s going on in my neighbor at my neighbor’s house. I have suspicions, I have whatever, and then they have to run it through their policies and procedures and whether or not they can do anything about it, you know?
00;42;39;22 – 00;43;01;08
Unknown
So that’s what’s scary. We’re trying to do good in the world. We’re trying to do all these things. And then you’re, people are people in authority are kind of like at a loss because they can’t just knock on a door and do a wellness check and go through all their things because you have to have a warrant, and then you have to have a warrant for this, that and the other, you know what I mean?
00;43;01;08 – 00;43;22;00
Unknown
Like really scary, right? They can’t just dig up their backyard for unless they’re they have whatever they need to have that justifies digging up their backyard. A woman coming and saying, look at these images. Like, I don’t think that’s enough reason. And that’s really sad because that really was what it was. How many times do you hear that.
00;43;22;03 – 00;43;42;13
Unknown
And then the opposite is also true. Right. If I, I don’t always believe people are healthy enough to go around convicting people of things that are necessarily true. So now you’ve uprooted someone’s life in their backyard, right. Just because someone had a hunch that they thought something was happening. Right. So from both perspective. Right. And then that’s where it becomes, oh, well, now it’s slander.
00;43;42;13 – 00;44;01;17
Unknown
Now I’m going to sue your ass. Like it’s really, I don’t know. But when it world is to this empathy and stupidity piece, would you add ever would you ever call what had happened their stupidity? Would you call it naivete? What would you call it? Definitely not stupid. I wouldn’t call it stupidity. I would call it an issue.
00;44;01;19 – 00;44;24;18
Unknown
It’s it’s it’s, it’s emotional. I don’t know, it’s definitely a psychological, emotional thing, but do you have any empathy for that? Man, I have zero empathy for him. This is where I struggle, I do, I do have empathy for him. And then I hate that I have empathy for him. I yeah, I do for people sitting on death row.
00;44;24;20 – 00;44;45;22
Unknown
Yeah I have and I hate I thought I got about that with me too. I can’t, you can’t really we can’t relate. I the empathy for the fact that he had to live with this, this whole life. Like you feel bad that he had to, he didn’t seem to bother him too much. Yes. It kind of sound real I bet you whatever you’re going to say is exactly.
00;44;45;22 – 00;45;07;15
Unknown
You can articulate it better than I can. Because it’s not. It’s not about that. What? What Scott just said for me. It’s not like that for me either. When when I think of human beings who have done the absolute most atrocious things you can possibly imagine, the only image that comes to my mind is them as an infant coming out, being born for the very first time.
00;45;07;17 – 00;45;39;07
Unknown
And I think to myself, that baby who came out there, baby, I’m literally imagining the mother holding it right out of the room, right? That baby in my mind was not born as this a serial killer. Right. Which may or may not be true. You the potential there could still be psychological chemical things in their brain that’s going to make them absolutely susceptible to that behavior.
00;45;39;09 – 00;46;04;07
Unknown
However predispositions. Yes. You know and then eventually if they were in the right environment, in the right familial environment and upbringing, that it’s possible they could have overcome that and gone a different direction, or if they were in a situation where that was, you know, pushed, you know, in the other direction. Either way, it could have happened. We just watched one about, Hayden Clark.
00;46;04;09 – 00;46;30;11
Unknown
It’s on I think it’s on Max. And this guy was a complete like he was a nutcase and he was crazy. He was really messed up from as a young guy, as a young kid. Granted, the family wasn’t great. And so every time you see this, you go back and you see that the upbringing, I mean, how many times have you seen one where where it was a perfectly good person, like maybe Ted Bundy was the one who grew up in a in a perfectly good environment.
00;46;30;11 – 00;46;50;05
Unknown
I don’t remember I don’t remember if he did or not, but every once in a while, there’s there’s a person who comes out of a perfectly good nor normal family and turns out to be a psycho, but most of the time they come from some really just screwed up abusive background that just makes them go that way. You don’t have any empathy for them.
00;46;50;05 – 00;47;10;29
Unknown
I do, I do, but I and I’m not saying I have empathy for the ax, I do not that it’s not human, but it’s that part for me that I’m thinking about this man and I’m thinking about what he’s talking about. And, you know, at one point he says, I just got off the boat, and I was I was wound like an eight day clock.
00;47;11;01 – 00;47;47;03
Unknown
Right? And then here he’s having all these feelings in these emotions and whatever it is that’s going on for him. And that was the not the first time, but that was the time where he went into this woman’s house and ended up killing her. I have zero compassion or empathy for what he did with that. But when I when I was watching his wife and hearing her say things like, you know, you wanted to give me this hope, I can’t discern whether or not that’s just massive manipulation or if that’s a really bad coping mechanism on his part.
00;47;47;03 – 00;48;07;23
Unknown
If he genuinely thought, at the end of the day, I did this terrible thing, and I do have some feelings of remorse about it, and it’s human nature to be like, well, I can’t admit to having done that, but what I can do is because I love my wife so much, keep making sure that she has hope that maybe someday this girl will come home.
00;48;07;23 – 00;48;32;16
Unknown
I know how effed up that sounds, but it it is that that’s the empathy part, that I have a really hard time. I believe that I believe that he wanted to continue to give her hope. I don’t necessarily think that that’s right, or just feel like that’s a convenient thing for him to say, to try to get that empathy from people like you.
00;48;32;19 – 00;48;53;10
Unknown
I don’t, I maybe I don’t, but how does one discern that that that’s the crux. That’s the crux. You really can’t are there just just people that are gonna be like me and are going to fall for that a lot? Yeah, more. And there’s people who aren’t. So what what differentiates those people? And we’ve already talked about how it’s very likely that this guy’s a big time manipulator.
00;48;53;10 – 00;49;14;26
Unknown
And he’s probably a lot of these people are very, very smart. They’re very good at analyzing and and but they’re also sociopaths, which means they don’t really have emotions. Right? They don’t have which is why he can hide like I’m I keep thinking, how do you have the straight face and and have these. Right. How do you convince someone?
00;49;14;28 – 00;49;49;00
Unknown
You know, my body chemistry, my face, just the flush of it. You can’t hide it. You can’t hide the things that aren’t true. And to keep up the facade for so long. Maybe that’s it. Maybe, maybe that’s it. When you are a highly, highly, highly empathic, caring and loving person, it is almost impossible to understand, any human life that lacks or is void of that.
00;49;49;06 – 00;50;22;14
Unknown
I can’t, I cannot imagine for the life of me what that would feel like. And so maybe that’s me or others who get manipulated putting that on these people because they are. He was very convincing and he was bawling his eyes out. And he did seem and act like he genuinely had care and concern and remorse. And I can’t for the life of me understood and how someone could do that and also not feel it.
00;50;22;17 – 00;50;53;26
Unknown
Right, I, I can’t, it is unfathomable for me to to differentiate those three. That’s what I hear you saying, right? I can’t differentiate if if I see a woodchuck on the side of the road that feels like it’s struggling, you’re going to see it throughout my entire body. This is the dumbest example. But Sawyer got to bring home her computer from school, and they have, like this Minecraft subscription or whatever, so she can do Minecraft.
00;50;53;26 – 00;51;07;23
Unknown
And she’s so excited. She’s showing me your house and all that. And then all of a sudden she goes, oh my God, mom, there’s a dog! There was a dog in the Minecraft, which looks like a Lego. Yeah. And it was in the water. And she and I are like, get the dog out of the water, get the dog out of the water.
00;51;07;23 – 00;51;26;07
Unknown
She got the bone, she got the dog out. It jumped back in and drowned. And we both were bawling. Yeah, it’s fucking Minecraft. It’s a fake ass thing. I know we can’t get out of our own way. I know, I know, but that’s the dumbest example of how it’s on. And then both of us are in the bathroom the rest of the night because we can’t freaking get our shit together.
00;51;26;10 – 00;51;51;06
Unknown
Literally. Right. That’s the dumbest thing ever. But it’s it’s so accurate, right? Which is why when if there’s even a tinge of softness between us, I’m like, I got to talk it out. I got I can’t function, I got it, I know I can’t do it, but does that does that over identification of empathy. So so I’m hearing you say both of you say no, it’s not stupidity.
00;51;51;08 – 00;52;18;27
Unknown
It’s just needing to own at the end of the day, that those of us who are so incredibly emotionally connected are more likely to be manipulated. And in addition to that, with the people who mean the most to us. Yes, I if that was my neighbor or somebody, I think it would be a different reaction. And that is a difference between the two of us.
00;52;18;27 – 00;52;48;16
Unknown
It wouldn’t for me. Right? It could be someone I met on in a bus. Right. And in that it doesn’t end for me. It doesn’t. There’s no bounds around that empathy and that care and that compassion. And if you show me the tiniest, tiniest, tiniest little evidence that there’s some remorse there, some sense of humanity in there, I will grab on to it like the last time, and I’m in a bag.
00;52;48;18 – 00;53;19;12
Unknown
I will just I won’t give up on it. I will be let’s clarify. Let’s clarify. That doesn’t mean you don’t believe in punishment appropriate right. Recourse, any of that. It’s just your emotional empathic response. Yeah, yeah. And join us next week when we talk about, the second part of this okay. Which is is empathy a trauma response?
00;53;19;15 – 00;53;43;29
Unknown
Because you’re saying that I’m as you’re saying that I’m immediately thinking that’s not okay. And where is that coming from and why is that happening? And let’s not keep saying what a beautiful, noble thing that Aaron has all this grand empathy for random strangers and people who do terrible things, and she can always catch on to that humanity.
00;53;44;01 – 00;54;08;29
Unknown
But what happens if we start to reframe that into empathy as a trauma response, as opposed to empathy as an act of nature, of caring deeply for for others? Stay tuned. Stay tuned. Here’s my affirmation card. I know that I am the only one who determines what is and isn’t right for me. I am the final say.
00;54;09;01 – 00;54;31;03
Unknown
Those frickin cards. I’ll never murder anyone. Thank you. Thank you. Because I can’t, I can’t I can’t sit there and be like this to the glass. Oh, I can feel you. Gotta go. You gotta go. And, Rebecca, when you come and visit me again, you have a collect call from Aaron. Oh, yeah. I’m playing board games with my family.
00;54;31;04 – 00;54;42;08
Unknown
Damn it. Aaron’s calling. Hang on. I gotta give her 20 minutes. She gonna tell me what they had to eat again today? Meatloaf again? Good. Good for you.
00;54;42;11 – 00;55;18;10
Unknown
I loved that. Me too. Isn’t empathy amazing? Well. We’re amazing. I don’t know about all that sympathy stuff. That’s fine. I accept you wherever you are. Oh, God, I love you. I love you, too. And if you love us, please like and subscribe to More Love the Power of Empathy podcast wherever you get your podcasts. See you next time.
Unknown
So though the whole story is about the mom fighting for justice for her daughter, who she’s convinced is dead, and this man is adamantly saying, I did not do that. And how dare you say that I’m doing this right when I’m not? That was my daughter. And whatever this, the bio mom goes to the point of getting billboards put up, like right outside of this man’s house hanging fliers.
00;00;34;13 – 00;00;51;22
Unknown
And she’s and she’s very definitive and saying, I know he killed my daughter. And I hope this makes him highly uncomfortable. I hope he knows we’re not giving up.
00;00;51;24 – 00;01;14;09
Unknown
Hey, it’s me. Erin, Thanks for joining us on the More Love podcast. Do not tell Rebecca, but this podcast is about empathy. She likes people to think she’s dead inside. But the truth is, she’s a big time feeler who has truly helped me uncover that empathy is my superpower. Here she comes. Hey, bestie. Hi, love. What are you doing?
00;01;14;10 – 00;01;38;06
Unknown
Oh, just getting ready to host a podcast. A podcast about what? Our life. Our life is. Best friends who are more like sisters. Oh, yay, I love us and I can’t wait to share our stories of the world, especially the ones that involve us pushing each other right to be our most authentic selves. Oh, man. Okay.
00;01;38;09 – 00;02;04;29
Unknown
Scott. Yeah. I felt judged this morning by the woman down the hall. Who? The one who makes the corn bean salad by Nadine. She’s not a judging type. Well, I was sitting in my car talking to Rebecca because, of course, we had to talk on the phone before we got to the podcast. And I was sitting there, and then she pulls in and she pulls in right next to me.
00;02;05;02 – 00;02;23;09
Unknown
And now I have some feelings about that because the whole parking lot is open. That’s probably her standard spot, which is what you would do. You only sit in the same spot, park in the same spot. I can accept that. Okay. That’s her usual spot. I can accept that. Okay. And so I. That must have been like the look on my face when I looked over.
00;02;23;09 – 00;02;48;27
Unknown
Was. Was the judgment I had about why you need to park right there. But then she, she gave the look back and I didn’t like that. Oh and it’s matching your energy. And then she got out and she had got a laundry hamper out of the, the side and linens. She was struggling to get it out because she had parked so close to my car.
00;02;48;29 – 00;03;16;03
Unknown
So I had feelings about that too. But I felt I felt like almost like I parked here because this is my spot. And now I am annoyed that I can’t get my linens out in the second. So I’m trying to think of the parking spots. Did you park in the handicapped spot? No. Okay. Next to it. Not that anyone could tell you her spot.
00;03;16;04 – 00;03;33;19
Unknown
You parked in my normal spot. I’m not parked in my normal spot today. And then. So. And she parked next to that. So. Yes. So. Yeah, that’s her normal spot. Well, I’m up then. Don’t park so close to me. Or maybe the face was confused of why Scott wasn’t there. Okay, that could have been it. And then she’s pissed because she brought a bunch of food.
00;03;33;22 – 00;03;52;10
Unknown
Why is that? What? Why is this blond hussy and Scott. Yeah. And then she’s probably like, is she the bitch that cackles? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Which she can’t figure out which one Cackling. I know, loud bitches. I know it. I know she’s like, you don’t look like a calculus counselor. I look like a cochlear. Cochlear? Like a cochlear.
00;03;52;10 – 00;04;13;15
Unknown
Yeah, a cochlear locksmith. But I gave the eye. And then she gave the eye back. And then she was annoyed that she couldn’t get her own laundry basket out. I mean, so I just needed to bring that up so I could. You put it to bed. Should we? At after this, should we go in and see a park job, or are you confident that you.
00;04;13;15 – 00;04;34;12
Unknown
Oh, don’t talk about her park job. I mean, I’m sorry. We have video tape to park time. Yeah, I’m sure I got. Yeah. How long have we been working together? Slide rule out. Let’s ask Karen what she doesn’t do. Well. Okay. Because the list of what she does do well is so long, we can only get done to the list.
00;04;34;12 – 00;04;52;13
Unknown
That doesn’t do well, then. Parking’s not on there. Yeah, we can’t park. Make parking 100% is not something that goes in the column of things I can’t do. Well, silly me, she’s got. Cause, like, we’ve been working together for years now. We don’t. I mean, parallel parking. I know, but we haven’t sat in a parked car yet together, so.
00;04;52;14 – 00;05;05;00
Unknown
Yes, we have. Have we? Yeah. For my birthday and my outing. Yeah, but I was in the car so I couldn’t see how well you parked. Oh, you mean side by side, parked. Parked up. Okay, I don’t know.
00;05;05;02 – 00;05;21;25
Unknown
So I just wanted to let you know that that happened. I had to get that out of the way. All right, well, I got something cool to talk about today, I think. I don’t know, you got to start us with some hippie ville. You going to do it now and then? We’ll see. If it has anything to do with what we’re going to talk about with what we’re going to do, this is a new card.
00;05;21;28 – 00;05;44;26
Unknown
That’s the the Two of Pentacles. And it’s a fox who’s lifting, barbells with his hands and his feet. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So the pentacles. I had to look it up. Two of Pentacles. Two of Pentacles and the Pentacles means, It represents earth. So it’s the realm of health, wealth, and manifestation. Which is interesting because when you called me, we were talking about money.
00;05;44;28 – 00;06;03;00
Unknown
And I just shared a story with you about the people that I was with this week are super into health and I just want to manifest all amazing things in my life. And you talked about a $200 steak that you ate. I did, I did actually it was 185, but I just rounded up to 200 because I’m assuming someone else paid for the steak.
00;06;03;01 – 00;06;34;04
Unknown
Oh, honey, honey. Mama, mama, mama brought snacks in her bag because she can’t. She can’t even go to the to the Chick-Fil-A. Okay. And two of Pentacles. There’s an empty, abandoned day planner out there somewhere, and it’s got your name on it. The dude. So this what, you eat these? I hate them so much to do. So discs asks you to maintain balance like juggling many different balls duties and queen size.
00;06;34;07 – 00;07;01;20
Unknown
Do whatever you can to keep your busy brain from scattering and manage your time with some good old fashioned to do lists. In the face of this much responsibility, one day mundane tasks become just as important as the main events. Congrats on the Nobel Prize! But did you put the laundry in the dryer? Funny story. Do you? You know how we had speaking of to do lists, do you know how we use those flip chart large pieces of paper to do things?
00;07;01;21 – 00;07;24;22
Unknown
Yeah. Well, the other day, actually, it was less no, not last Monday. It was the Monday before. So because I left last Monday to go to Texas, the money before I took all of my scattered ad lists and I put them together and I created columns on one of those huge piece of paper. Not only that, but then I associated Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.
00;07;24;22 – 00;07;49;16
Unknown
It’s like I even created like, here’s what I’m going to do during these chunks of time, right through all these things. And I’m writing in my normal sized training, like on college ruled. Yeah. No paper guidelines. Yeah. No, it’s little like I’m reading the normal. Okay. The thing is, I wish I still had it. The thing is I’ll get to the end of the week getting prepared to go to Texas.
00;07;49;18 – 00;08;07;10
Unknown
Not one thing is one thing. No, not one thing left. Do I rip it off, fold it all up and put it in my bag to go? Oh, sure. Do, sure do. Okay, get to Texas and we have a working day when we’re there with the whole team. And I was like, all right, everybody, here’s what I have to do.
00;08;07;17 – 00;08;33;01
Unknown
They put you all out that big ass list. Guess what? You did one thing that was because I was doing a live event. I did all of my standard, but then I have to be in the room to be available. Whatever. I knocked out the whole thing. Wow. Over the course of three days. Wow. Do I have 75 35,000 emails in my email with more things to do?
00;08;33;01 – 00;08;49;25
Unknown
Absolutely. Yeah, right. But I got all that stuff. That’s the worst part. That was a big deal for me, because normally I’m doing what we need to do right now and not getting to all the backstab. And you still didn’t have a feeling of accomplishment when you got to the end of it? Not even close. I know we talk about that all the time.
00;08;49;25 – 00;09;12;12
Unknown
You’re at 80. Aaron, Aaron says to me, don’t you feel great when you check things off? The dude to do list? I said, absolutely not because it just gets filled up with more. There is never a sense of done. Never. Not for me. I will do something. Realize it wasn’t on the To-Do list, write it on the to do list and then cross it off just to get that sense of accomplishment.
00;09;12;12 – 00;09;29;09
Unknown
Yeah, I don’t feel that way at all. In fact, I’ve already started a new large a new large like to do to do it. There was a lot of things that happened in that card. One, it was talking about fitness, it was talking about money which as you said were two things we talked about.
00;09;29;12 – 00;09;51;12
Unknown
And I see that it was talking about laundry, which brings up what happened to me in the parking lot that we just stuck. That’s right. It’s all tied together. Just happened there. Oh my gosh, that’s funny. What’s her name? They been. It’s got. Oh Nadine okay okay. See I you know it’s hard for me to I can’t take sides in that situation because I’m close with Nadine.
00;09;51;12 – 00;10;22;16
Unknown
So this is not a personality swap. No, I know I just when, when, you know how it’s difficult when two people you, like have some sort of a, whatever it is, some confrontation or conflict, like, oh, no, I don’t. Who’s right, I do. You feel that same way? She’s you first. You you must like this. I feel that that is that is probably the universal response to what you just said.
00;10;22;18 – 00;10;41;02
Unknown
Like everybody, you take 20 people and put in a room and 19 are going to make that face. Even a dog would make that face, I think, well, just tell me who’s right. I’ll tell you who the right person is in the situation. Let me know what it is. Did I say you were wrong? No. But you can go look at my parking job and let me know.
00;10;41;05 – 00;11;01;05
Unknown
I don’t have to look at your parking job. I do compare it to mine. I don’t even think I’m in the lane. And the lines. All right, I think I’m over to. I think it took up to. Right. She’s. She’s parked like this. Yeah. Just she’s perpendicular. I also have zero concept of how long my front end is.
00;11;01;10 – 00;11;18;26
Unknown
I think it’s way longer than it is. So I never pull on where. Oh, way in the back. Yeah. My. Yeah. As always, stick it out. Yeah, I get all right, here’s the question. I’m posing for you fools today. Okay.
00;11;18;28 – 00;11;51;02
Unknown
Is empathy ever stupidity? Is empathy ever stupidity? Scooby doesn’t know either. And I’m going to give you an example from something I watched. I mean, I have a gut reaction. Oh, you do, but I’m taking a page out of your book. Oh, and and working it through. Oh, wow. What? And my going to hold my response to the end.
00;11;51;03 – 00;12;13;14
Unknown
Okay, okay. It will probably be the same person worded more nicely. Wow. Yeah that’s great. I let me just let me see how well I know you. Okay. And when I say is empathy ever stupidity in your in your brain. You just went yeah it’s always stupid. No. No one should ever be doing it. No no no no no no no no no no no no no that’s not okay.
00;12;13;14 – 00;12;36;14
Unknown
No okay. So I can give you a little more credit then. Yeah. No I don’t think, I don’t think that is empathy ever stupidity. The other way to word this would be can empathy ever be stupid? And I’m going to go with this thing I watched last night that really I over identified with quite a bit. Okay.
00;12;36;16 – 00;13;10;28
Unknown
And, and I, I’m still struggling with to this day. Okay. I can’t remember the name of this thing that I watched. Of course, it was a murder show. Okay, okay. But this man and this woman were married, and they adopted a little girl at the age of ten months. The little girl ends up going missing at the age of 14, and now it’s 30 some odd years later, they still have never been able to.
00;13;11;02 – 00;13;32;06
Unknown
Well, at this point in the story, they had never been able to find her. Wow. 14 okay, the can we I have a follow question, which sounds dumb. Yeah. Do you know where they lived? Yes. Was it in the in this country? It was Michigan. Okay. So is in the United States? Yes. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right.
00;13;32;08 – 00;13;58;16
Unknown
So why are you laughing? Is that still relevant to you? I mean, if she’s in Greece, in Ukraine, that’s what happened. Well, no, I just enough. Where are they in Afghanistan? I mean, shit, that’s like day in, day out. Now, Michigan. Okay. Michigan. Michigan, Michigan. So then bio mom who is the mom who gave her up for adoption?
00;13;58;16 – 00;14;09;10
Unknown
Thank you for clarifying what bio mom means. I thought there was like some sort of social media person that I should know about. Like who’s bio like octo mom.
00;14;09;12 – 00;14;24;29
Unknown
I don’t know, in this moment, if you’re making fun of me, I think you’re really. You know what? I’m bio mom. Is mom okay? You could just. I don’t know, That’s making fun of me. Are you making fun of me, Scott? No, I’m not making fun of you, I am. Oh, yes. Yes, Scott’s actually appreciative that I was.
00;14;24;29 – 00;14;47;13
Unknown
Now he’s making fun of you. He just doesn’t want to make you feel bad. Whatever. You guys so. Well, joke’s on you guys because I’m neurodivergent, and these. I’m going to tell you the end of the story right now. Like I always do. Yeah. Okay, listen to me. I am. Good God. I should do bio mom, not Octomom bio mom a.k.a birth mom.
00;14;47;15 – 00;15;16;23
Unknown
Yes. She sets out to find her daughter when she ends up finding out that she had been missing. And bio mom does this whole bunch of research and comes to the conclusion that the person who killed her daughter because she’s convinced she’s dead, okay, is the adoptive father, and that the adoptive there’s a lot of missing pieces here.
00;15;16;23 – 00;15;44;11
Unknown
Okay. Adoptive father, there’s no way that this was a one and done incident, that he must be a serial killer. This is what she’s. And and she goes so far as to say the girl is buried in the backyard. Because I did Google map images year after year after year. And this is the one spot that’s continually changing in their backyard garden or something.
00;15;44;17 – 00;16;04;26
Unknown
Okay, so, what was the okay, well, pause here for questions. So I need the name of this. So I need to watch this bio mom like just comes out of the woodwork. So she decided she wanted to find her her daughter, that she gave up for adoption at ten months old. And how did she know that was her daughter that was missing?
00;16;04;26 – 00;16;28;02
Unknown
Because it’s just an open adoption. Did she find out when she went to look that the daughter was missing? Is that she found out okay? Yes. Why do you mean? You mean when she turned 18? Because. Isn’t there rules? Isn’t there rules in adoption? Especially if it’s closed? You can’t. I think it depends on the state. That’s another reason why I would want to know where it is.
00;16;28;02 – 00;16;53;06
Unknown
I don’t really know. I can’t actually remember in this moment why bio mom went looking for the daughter. But I do know that bio mom was very young like 1415 what she had when she had her and did not want to give her up for adoption. I was forced, but by your mom’s own mom said you’re not fit to be a mother.
00;16;53;06 – 00;17;15;15
Unknown
You need to. This is, of course, daughter up for adoption. And she. I remember her saying that she was told her daughter’s going to go to the best of the best family because, she’s only ten months old and there’s so many adoptive parents who are looking for, babies. Oh, so this wasn’t even in the hospital. I’m I know I birth.
00;17;15;15 – 00;17;32;18
Unknown
Do you live a long? She raised her for the first ten of the first ten months, and it was clear that this wasn’t working. Well, not to her. It was clear to her mom. Well, because she the child was like, yes, I’m getting anxious about. I’m going to have to teach her how to walk, and I’m going to have to teach it how to be on solid foods.
00;17;32;18 – 00;17;48;20
Unknown
And like, yes, it was really overwhelming. But by your mom’s, mom was like, you’re not fit to be doing any of this. You need to give this baby up for adoption. It will have a better life. And convinced by your mom that that was in the baby’s best interest. There’s this sound familiar? Into the fire, the lost Daughter.
00;17;48;25 – 00;18;11;10
Unknown
Yes. Okay. Text me that. I’m watching. A two part documentary recounts her canyons yearlong search for Adria Baumann. Yup. Nay, Alexis Badger. Yeah. Who went missing in 1989 because she named her Alexis. And the harrowing revelations that culminated in her belief that Alexis had been murdered by her adoptive father. Can’t wait. Okay, okay. I’m all in island. Keep going.
00;18;11;14 – 00;18;40;07
Unknown
Okay. All right. Any more questions? I’m sure, I’m sure. All our questions from the audience, doctor. Anyone? So that means you got it. Oh. They were. Oh, oh, I’ll talk to Doctor Oz here. So I’m watching this. And the mom, the bio mom is a bit intense. Like, she’s very definitive. Kind of like someone else, you know? And she’s just a very much like.
00;18;40;07 – 00;19;15;16
Unknown
You need to look at this. This is what’s happening. They ended up going to a an event that was in Michigan for missing and exploited children. And the adoptive mom ended up being there and Kathy bio mom ended up being there. And there ended up being this massive argument that happened because Kathy bio mom, was yelling at the adoptive mom and basically saying, your husband is the one who did this, and what was her reasoning?
00;19;15;16 – 00;19;51;13
Unknown
Did it ever say why she felt so strongly about the husband? I believe she started to look into the background of these people who got her child okay, because she was, I believe, if I’m remembering correctly, trying to figure out, who ultimately ended up with her daughter and this man had been in prison previously for attempted it was assault with attempted an intent to murder.
00;19;51;20 – 00;20;10;03
Unknown
So this was not a formal adoption. This was a the parents gave him to anybody? No, I think it was a formal adoption, which is what made this so crazy by your mom was like, how are we? You’re not doing back. I’m have. If you’ve done any type of background check, you see that this man’s been in prison.
00;20;10;03 – 00;20;38;15
Unknown
You see that this man has a past assault history. You see that this man had, the assault, I believe, was on a young child. Like, what the hell are we doing here? So she started to be like, nope, nope, all of this. This is just making way too much sense about what was really happening. So the the whole story is about the mom fighting for justice for her daughter, who she’s convinced is dead.
00;20;38;18 – 00;21;08;00
Unknown
And this man is adamantly saying, I did not do that. And how dare you say that I’m doing this right when I’m not? That was my daughter. And whatever this, the bio mom goes to the point of getting billboards put up, like right outside of this man’s house, hanging fliers. And she’s and she’s very definitive and saying, I know he killed my daughter.
00;21;08;00 – 00;21;37;06
Unknown
And I hope this makes him highly uncomfortable. I hope he knows we’re not giving up. Can’t you see we’re for libel? No. Freedom of speech? No, no, that’s not true. Sure it. He didn’t say it. Didn’t say the posters didn’t say this man killed my daughter. They said missing this girl is missing. Reward, Lord. But she can go around verbalizing what she feels, and he can’t sue her for defamation of character.
00;21;37;08 – 00;22;02;07
Unknown
I mean, he could, but she he ain’t gonna get anything right, is she? Unless she’s got money and insurance and whatever. I mean, and I don’t know what reaches that. The level of defamation of character. Right. You’re allowed to say pretty much whatever you want. Anyone. You can’t you can’t write about it. If you write about something like that, that’s that’s not clearly provable.
00;22;02;09 – 00;22;27;29
Unknown
And maybe we can ask Joe, the resident lawyer. But yeah, you write about it. It’s libel. Which means if I mean, there’s been plenty of stories where people called someone something and they were sued because they couldn’t prove it. And if you can’t prove it, then it’s not, you know what I mean. It’s fascinating. So but at the same time write down on this piece of paper right now you’re a massive bitch right.
00;22;28;00 – 00;23;03;01
Unknown
That’s right. And then they’re like prove it. All right. And then I go and prove it. That counselor. Well, I mean, I think again, maybe there’s like definitions between opinion and slander, acts of murderous bitch. Then there could be. Yeah. Yeah, I don’t know. Interesting. Okay. So it finally comes out that. This this wife has stuck by her husband for this entire time because she’s like, this is not there is no way.
00;23;03;01 – 00;23;31;24
Unknown
This is not the man that I know. And that’s what they are. So finally it comes out that this man ends up getting arrested for. For what? It’s probably something stupid arrested in conjunction with a murder, assault and murder. The sexual assault and murder that happened in Virginia right then and there. It wasn’t an old one. It was an old time.
00;23;31;27 – 00;23;53;10
Unknown
Oh, it was it from years. And it was an old ago. Okay, so it wasn’t a current. No. So because they were looking into this man, they started to find out that he was in Virginia at the time that this murder happened, even though he absolutely wasn’t supposed to be. He was in the military, and he ended up getting off the boat or something.
00;23;53;10 – 00;24;15;08
Unknown
And he was in that area, in the area at the time. Now this I’m sorry, super drunk. Apparently my questions like normal. Was he married to that woman at the time? Yeah. So he’s been married to that woman for this since young? Pretty much the entire time he’s been married 50 years. Okay, y’all okay? Very long. She’s just living her housewife life and blinders and okay.
00;24;15;09 – 00;24;46;08
Unknown
Protecting and you know, whatever. So he gets arrested and they show him in the interrogation room with the man in the, the the police officer is like I’ve been every time you’ve turned around and you’ve wondered if someone was looking for you. That was me. Stop. He says it in the, in the attack. It’s you. It’s like I know, I know that’s the I loved it.
00;24;46;10 – 00;25;06;11
Unknown
And the guy, the guy is like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. He’s like that breath on the back of here next to it, when you weren’t sure if we were getting close or not. That was me. And it’s just for this one murder. This guy’s like, wait, you know, what the hell you talking about? And he is like, you know why we’re here.
00;25;06;14 – 00;25;23;20
Unknown
You’ve been waiting for this day to happen for a third 30 years. And he’s like, and I’m gonna end it for you. I’m gonna end the wonder about when that day is going to come. Because that day today, and now he’s in his 50s, 60s, like, he’s like, yeah, this man is he’s not. Because it’s been 30 years.
00;25;23;20 – 00;25;50;12
Unknown
It’s got to be it late 60s. And at this point the child has been missing for so long. So if that was 1989 when she went missing, he was caught by this breathing fire by, no, not police, a police officer. What year like 2019? They they all happened at the same time. So then 889 is when she went away.
00;25;50;13 – 00;26;13;10
Unknown
Oh, the murder happened. The the original murder happened. I think, maybe like a year or two before the girl went missing. Oh, so. So he was an established father. The Virginia murder happened first. But in that time, within a couple of years. So he he was in the military, active military witness when he was raising a teenager.
00;26;13;11 – 00;26;36;05
Unknown
I don’t know, or this was like when he was 18. Okay. Because these are clarifying questions that would make a difference in my mind. It’s all again, fuzzy for me right now. I’m getting fuzzy. Okay. I guess it’s like, because all I want to talk about is, is empathy stupid, right? And I don’t know the details. It’s like it’s like I watch it because I also I’m like scrolling my phone and eating chips while I’m watching this.
00;26;36;05 – 00;26;55;08
Unknown
And so that was probably a time where I was like filling up my Gatorade or something, I don’t know. But within a certain amount of time these things had happened. Okay. And then 30 years go past and now he’s being called into the interrogation room for this murder of this other woman. I want her to call her Kathleen.
00;26;55;11 – 00;27;33;13
Unknown
Okay. And his story is essentially that he was drunk and he thought maybe they had some money laying around. And so he went into the house and thought the house was empty because there were no cars and there were no lights on. But when he got in there, the woman who was in the bedroom started screaming and he had had a pen in his hand to try and open the window lock and had somehow shoved the pen here because he shows the guy shoves under under the right into the rib, and that ultimately she ends up dying.
00;27;33;15 – 00;27;58;01
Unknown
And the guy, the guy is like, nope, no, that’s not what happens. And so they end up then revealing that this woman had been brutally stabbed 7 or 8 times with a pen with a knife. Oh yeah. And it just terrible things that happened to this woman. She had also been sexually assaulted. Oh, all of this stuff. They found his seminal fluid on the comforter.
00;27;58;07 – 00;28;29;07
Unknown
Yep. Okay, so part of how they discovered this was through the genealogy, right? Is that the criminal genealogy thing, DNA. Yeah. So that’s ultimately how they ended up bringing him to justice was through that process. Wow. So, his wife. Okay, so now they’re they’re in the room, and this man’s wife gets brought in and gets told your husband is being charged with the murder of this person, Kathleen.
00;28;29;10 – 00;28;52;15
Unknown
And that it happened this many years ago. There was also a sexual assault. And she says that’s not the man I know. That did not happen. And she’s continuing to be like, no, this there’s no way, you know, and he is continuing to say, no, I didn’t do this. And then they’re like, well, you have we have DNA evidence.
00;28;52;17 – 00;29;20;13
Unknown
And he is like, the story that happened was I went in there to, get some money, but that was it. Like, I definitely didn’t kill this woman. And the wife is very, nothing to see here at this at this point. Right. And I found myself being able to relate with that at that point. Like, you just found out that your husband sexually assaulted someone in murdered them.
00;29;20;17 – 00;29;36;29
Unknown
There’s no. You didn’t have any indication of this. You’ve asked him probably a million different times. And it didn’t happen that he said it didn’t happen. Right. So I I’m with her in this moment where she’s saying, your daughter went missing and she’s still with him.
00;29;37;02 – 00;29;57;12
Unknown
Yes. Because they’ve been searching together for her. Right. Okay. I’ll hold a hold. My comments to the end. They’re searching together for her. And he’s been very clear he didn’t have anything to do with that. Okay. But then you got Kathy over here who’s like nope, nope. Just so we’re clear. So she now finds out he’s getting pulled in for this other murder.
00;29;57;13 – 00;30;16;22
Unknown
Yeah. And her response is it’s just not time yet. Just not justice for my daughter yet. But it’ll come out. It’ll come out. Give, give, give it time. Oh, this is trooper. This is the the oh my God, give it time. Give it time. Right. Yeah. So. So this woman, I can relate with her at this moment because she’s not believing that this is really happening.
00;30;16;22 – 00;30;46;03
Unknown
And that this is not there’s no possible way that this could have happened. Okay. So it then starts to come out more that they know that he killed his daughter, and they need to get this woman, the wife, to be in the know about the fact that he has killed his daughter. Time out legit killed or they’re they’re convinced he’s killed.
00;30;46;05 – 00;31;07;26
Unknown
Convinced. Okay. So at this point, there’s no body, there’s no evidence, there’s no nothing. Right. So but they the this is the police feel we need to we need to get her on our side. Because the only way he’s going to come confess or give any sort of indication that we could nail him is by you. Doing the quote unquote interrogation, participating in some way shape or form.
00;31;08;03 – 00;31;43;07
Unknown
Absolutely. So she ends up, they end up saying I know you want to stay in Michigan and you don’t want to be extradited to Virginia. You’re gonna serve the rest of your life in prison for the murder of this person. And we don’t make you any promises. But if you tell us what happened to your daughter, and you get closure for your wife, then we will consider keeping you in Michigan so that you can at least see your wife raped easier.
00;31;43;07 – 00;32;05;19
Unknown
She wasn’t. She’s in her 70s. You know. She’s not driving a Virginia. Yeah, right. Yeah. If she even wants to see. Right. Well, that’s what you would think. Well, right. So she then decides that she’s going to ask him question and he just continues to say, no, I did not know. I did not know. I did not what?
00;32;05;20 – 00;32;31;04
Unknown
I’ve been looking for her for this many years. I don’t even know if she’s gone. I don’t like, like I don’t know what you want me to say. I didn’t do this. So the wife starts to say he didn’t do it. He didn’t do it like he. If this is our child, we loved this child somewhere in the mix here, he decides, get my wife in here, bring her into the room.
00;32;31;07 – 00;33;01;17
Unknown
And he says, you better have the cameras rolling. The wife comes in and he says, honey, I killed our daughter. She was in our bedroom and she looked like she was about to leave. And I said, you’re not going anywhere. And she said, yes, I am. And I hit her and she fell down the stairs. And when I went to the bottom of the stairs to check on her, her neck didn’t look right.
00;33;01;20 – 00;33;32;02
Unknown
And so I took her and I put her in the garage, and I wrapped her up in a beautiful white blanket as what he’s saying to her. And I left her body out there for a little bit while I called in and said that she was a missing person. And then I went to the extent of sprinkling cinnamon and cloves and all these other different smells all over the the white tarp, the white sheet that I wrapped her up in.
00;33;32;05 – 00;33;57;28
Unknown
And then I buried her in a beautiful cemetery plot next to our house. And I couldn’t tell you because I couldn’t break your heart because we’ve been looking for her for 30 years. And as long as you still had hope that something didn’t happen, then I couldn’t. I couldn’t take that away from you. Unless this woman in this moment is bawling.
00;33;58;01 – 00;34;39;05
Unknown
She says, don’t admit to something you didn’t do. And he says, I did it, babe, I did it, I did it. I’m so sorry. And now they’re both bawling their eyes out. And she says something along the lines of, why did you lie to me for all of these years? And I still love you, and essentially is saying, I can’t believe that you’ve had to hold on to this for all of these years, instead of just telling me.
00;34;39;07 – 00;35;08;25
Unknown
And she’s barely vacillating between anger and resentment and like, but I still love you, and it’s in God’s hands now, and we’ll figure it out together. And this man goes on to say that he had to cut the body up because it wouldn’t fit in a container that he was trying to put it in. And the woman just continues to be like, don’t admit to something you didn’t do.
00;35;08;25 – 00;35;32;15
Unknown
No, this can’t be true or whatever, but still has this undying love and empathy and compassion for this man and what it is that he’s had to go through all of these years knowing that he had killed their their daughter and wasn’t able to say anything about it. Now it’s like a split screen happens. And then you got Kathy.
00;35;32;17 – 00;35;57;24
Unknown
Kathy comes in, you fill Kathy in on what what’s gone on. And Kathy is like, what an idiot. I can’t, she’s losing her. She’s just like, these people are certifiable. I can’t, you know, whatever. Yeah. So ultimately, he ends up admitting to the murder of the child, the murder of this other woman there. All the police officers are all very clear that he has murdered other people.
00;35;57;25 – 00;36;43;14
Unknown
Because that first murder with the seven stab wounds was not the first time he had ever murdered someone, okay? He’s murdered people. He’s been lying to his wife the entire time. And I can’t stop thinking about this woman. And. And, it just brings up for me. Can empathy ever be stupid? Because where does empathy and compassion and, like, commitment and devotion and seeing him as a human that you’ve known for 50 years and knowing that he’s done these really horrendous things, where does like when is it appropriate for that to stop and for the anger and resentment?
00;36;43;14 – 00;37;21;07
Unknown
And I can’t believe that you did this and and like more empathy for the daughter and what the daughter had to go through. And the reason I bring this up is I think I could see myself being the woman who was really trying to relate or understand empathically through this horrendously horrific act that had happened. And I was disgusted at myself and confused at myself and like trying to figure out why anyone in the entire world would feel that way.
00;37;21;09 – 00;37;40;12
Unknown
And I think listeners would be real quick to be like, absolutely not. That was not my trial that there. If that was my child, there’s no way I would ever. I think people are real quick to say, absolutely not, but you got to watch this, this documentary. Oh, I would have reacted the exact way she did. Really? One absolutely, really.
00;37;40;13 – 00;38;09;19
Unknown
But when as you’re talking about it, I think it’s it’s a timing thing. Because they had gone through this journey and he admitted my whole goal was to keep giving you hope. Right? So she has this baggage she’s bringing with her that is xyzzy, right. However, if it if it came out within like a couple days, a couple of weeks or whatever, I think the reaction might have been different from her.
00;38;09;22 – 00;38;28;14
Unknown
At least Christmas would have been long. He’s been manipulating. I’m wondering, I’m wondering especially if she’s that type of person that’s like a Pollyanna right. A Pollyanna in addition to just wants to be loved. It’s very clear to me that her love that she has with her husband was the end all be all. It was the only thing that ever mattered.
00;38;28;15 – 00;38;54;11
Unknown
Exactly. So I wouldn’t define it as stupidity. I would define it as a trauma response or something. Because if she were to say that that was her immediate reaction, my guess is digesting all of those things. Then we start having different kinds of as they start reaction to cell phone calls that they started to she started to get angry.
00;38;54;11 – 00;39;14;19
Unknown
Why didn’t you say these things to me? But then what’s fascinating is he would say something like, you’re just going to have to make up your mind yourself how what you want to do next. In her responses. Well, I don’t need you to be mad at me. Yeah. And I’m like, that’s that’s a that’s a trauma. That’s a trauma response.
00;39;14;20 – 00;39;34;21
Unknown
What do you what he probably he murdered your child. Yeah. But I mean, if you probably go in and psychoanalyze their relationship and bet you he has sort of a cult leader type of, of control over her. Or he picked her specifically because he knew he could get away with these kinds of things. Right. Like he can totally manipulate her 100%.
00;39;34;21 – 00;39;53;04
Unknown
I mean it, we all we all watch those murder shows all the time. And how many times has that come into play. That’s true. Where where the wife is like, you know, manipulating the other person that they’re oblivious to, oblivious all the signs, they don’t see it. And then when they’re when they’re confronted with the truth, they can’t believe it.
00;39;53;05 – 00;40;25;00
Unknown
They just can’t. And it substitute murder with addiction. Yeah, whatever. Or. Yeah, cheating or stealing money or you know what a substitute with anything that’s just bad. Not not guy. Yeah, but why not? Butts up against for me is where is that line. And my line is not at all the line that should be used in these types of discussions.
00;40;25;02 – 00;40;51;25
Unknown
But when it was that extreme of an example and it was so much in my face that I was like the natural reaction to this is to shut it down immediately and say, I need to acknowledge that I’ve been absolutely brainwashed, gaslit, and manipulated our entire marriage. And I can’t trust anything that you’ve said that that that would be a completely, in my mind, normal response.
00;40;51;28 – 00;41;11;00
Unknown
And yet I could still see myself reacting the way that this woman dead. I think it said at the end that he did ultimately get extradited back to Virginia because they were like, none of this is going to be on your terms. Thanks for the information. We know we told you it wasn’t going to be, you know, we’d like to give in, but nope, you’re going to go to Virginia.
00;41;11;00 – 00;41;28;28
Unknown
You don’t get to have any ounce of happiness in your life. So he really did kill the girl. Yeah, okay. And, you know, out of nowhere, she was in the same place. He pleaded no contest in the place card, right where the mom knew, where she said where she went through these images. Yep. That’s exactly where they found her.
00;41;29;00 – 00;41;57;17
Unknown
In the bio. Mom had to give the DNA sample to confirm that it was officially her daughter, and it came back 100% certainty. And that’s how it was. This kind of tells a little bit of a story about the the Michigan authorities, how they probably shouldn’t let this go, because I was reading a little bit while you were talking and the there’s a story in a paper there where she had accused him of abuse.
00;41;57;20 – 00;42;16;25
Unknown
Yeah. And there was a neighbor who’s who said that, like she accused him of abuse. And the mother said that’s a lie. So it was there. And the fact that that was out and the authorities, I don’t know if they just, if it just ran into a cold case and they couldn’t prove anything and it just stopped there.
00;42;16;27 – 00;42;39;19
Unknown
But that’s kind of weird. But that’s what’s interesting is everything has to be run by policies and procedures. Right. Like I can’t just go up to somebody of authority and say, I think something’s going on in my neighbor at my neighbor’s house. I have suspicions, I have whatever, and then they have to run it through their policies and procedures and whether or not they can do anything about it, you know?
00;42;39;22 – 00;43;01;08
Unknown
So that’s what’s scary. We’re trying to do good in the world. We’re trying to do all these things. And then you’re, people are people in authority are kind of like at a loss because they can’t just knock on a door and do a wellness check and go through all their things because you have to have a warrant, and then you have to have a warrant for this, that and the other, you know what I mean?
00;43;01;08 – 00;43;22;00
Unknown
Like really scary, right? They can’t just dig up their backyard for unless they’re they have whatever they need to have that justifies digging up their backyard. A woman coming and saying, look at these images. Like, I don’t think that’s enough reason. And that’s really sad because that really was what it was. How many times do you hear that.
00;43;22;03 – 00;43;42;13
Unknown
And then the opposite is also true. Right. If I, I don’t always believe people are healthy enough to go around convicting people of things that are necessarily true. So now you’ve uprooted someone’s life in their backyard, right. Just because someone had a hunch that they thought something was happening. Right. So from both perspective. Right. And then that’s where it becomes, oh, well, now it’s slander.
00;43;42;13 – 00;44;01;17
Unknown
Now I’m going to sue your ass. Like it’s really, I don’t know. But when it world is to this empathy and stupidity piece, would you add ever would you ever call what had happened their stupidity? Would you call it naivete? What would you call it? Definitely not stupid. I wouldn’t call it stupidity. I would call it an issue.
00;44;01;19 – 00;44;24;18
Unknown
It’s it’s it’s, it’s emotional. I don’t know, it’s definitely a psychological, emotional thing, but do you have any empathy for that? Man, I have zero empathy for him. This is where I struggle, I do, I do have empathy for him. And then I hate that I have empathy for him. I yeah, I do for people sitting on death row.
00;44;24;20 – 00;44;45;22
Unknown
Yeah I have and I hate I thought I got about that with me too. I can’t, you can’t really we can’t relate. I the empathy for the fact that he had to live with this, this whole life. Like you feel bad that he had to, he didn’t seem to bother him too much. Yes. It kind of sound real I bet you whatever you’re going to say is exactly.
00;44;45;22 – 00;45;07;15
Unknown
You can articulate it better than I can. Because it’s not. It’s not about that. What? What Scott just said for me. It’s not like that for me either. When when I think of human beings who have done the absolute most atrocious things you can possibly imagine, the only image that comes to my mind is them as an infant coming out, being born for the very first time.
00;45;07;17 – 00;45;39;07
Unknown
And I think to myself, that baby who came out there, baby, I’m literally imagining the mother holding it right out of the room, right? That baby in my mind was not born as this a serial killer. Right. Which may or may not be true. You the potential there could still be psychological chemical things in their brain that’s going to make them absolutely susceptible to that behavior.
00;45;39;09 – 00;46;04;07
Unknown
However predispositions. Yes. You know and then eventually if they were in the right environment, in the right familial environment and upbringing, that it’s possible they could have overcome that and gone a different direction, or if they were in a situation where that was, you know, pushed, you know, in the other direction. Either way, it could have happened. We just watched one about, Hayden Clark.
00;46;04;09 – 00;46;30;11
Unknown
It’s on I think it’s on Max. And this guy was a complete like he was a nutcase and he was crazy. He was really messed up from as a young guy, as a young kid. Granted, the family wasn’t great. And so every time you see this, you go back and you see that the upbringing, I mean, how many times have you seen one where where it was a perfectly good person, like maybe Ted Bundy was the one who grew up in a in a perfectly good environment.
00;46;30;11 – 00;46;50;05
Unknown
I don’t remember I don’t remember if he did or not, but every once in a while, there’s there’s a person who comes out of a perfectly good nor normal family and turns out to be a psycho, but most of the time they come from some really just screwed up abusive background that just makes them go that way. You don’t have any empathy for them.
00;46;50;05 – 00;47;10;29
Unknown
I do, I do, but I and I’m not saying I have empathy for the ax, I do not that it’s not human, but it’s that part for me that I’m thinking about this man and I’m thinking about what he’s talking about. And, you know, at one point he says, I just got off the boat, and I was I was wound like an eight day clock.
00;47;11;01 – 00;47;47;03
Unknown
Right? And then here he’s having all these feelings in these emotions and whatever it is that’s going on for him. And that was the not the first time, but that was the time where he went into this woman’s house and ended up killing her. I have zero compassion or empathy for what he did with that. But when I when I was watching his wife and hearing her say things like, you know, you wanted to give me this hope, I can’t discern whether or not that’s just massive manipulation or if that’s a really bad coping mechanism on his part.
00;47;47;03 – 00;48;07;23
Unknown
If he genuinely thought, at the end of the day, I did this terrible thing, and I do have some feelings of remorse about it, and it’s human nature to be like, well, I can’t admit to having done that, but what I can do is because I love my wife so much, keep making sure that she has hope that maybe someday this girl will come home.
00;48;07;23 – 00;48;32;16
Unknown
I know how effed up that sounds, but it it is that that’s the empathy part, that I have a really hard time. I believe that I believe that he wanted to continue to give her hope. I don’t necessarily think that that’s right, or just feel like that’s a convenient thing for him to say, to try to get that empathy from people like you.
00;48;32;19 – 00;48;53;10
Unknown
I don’t, I maybe I don’t, but how does one discern that that that’s the crux. That’s the crux. You really can’t are there just just people that are gonna be like me and are going to fall for that a lot? Yeah, more. And there’s people who aren’t. So what what differentiates those people? And we’ve already talked about how it’s very likely that this guy’s a big time manipulator.
00;48;53;10 – 00;49;14;26
Unknown
And he’s probably a lot of these people are very, very smart. They’re very good at analyzing and and but they’re also sociopaths, which means they don’t really have emotions. Right? They don’t have which is why he can hide like I’m I keep thinking, how do you have the straight face and and have these. Right. How do you convince someone?
00;49;14;28 – 00;49;49;00
Unknown
You know, my body chemistry, my face, just the flush of it. You can’t hide it. You can’t hide the things that aren’t true. And to keep up the facade for so long. Maybe that’s it. Maybe, maybe that’s it. When you are a highly, highly, highly empathic, caring and loving person, it is almost impossible to understand, any human life that lacks or is void of that.
00;49;49;06 – 00;50;22;14
Unknown
I can’t, I cannot imagine for the life of me what that would feel like. And so maybe that’s me or others who get manipulated putting that on these people because they are. He was very convincing and he was bawling his eyes out. And he did seem and act like he genuinely had care and concern and remorse. And I can’t for the life of me understood and how someone could do that and also not feel it.
00;50;22;17 – 00;50;53;26
Unknown
Right, I, I can’t, it is unfathomable for me to to differentiate those three. That’s what I hear you saying, right? I can’t differentiate if if I see a woodchuck on the side of the road that feels like it’s struggling, you’re going to see it throughout my entire body. This is the dumbest example. But Sawyer got to bring home her computer from school, and they have, like this Minecraft subscription or whatever, so she can do Minecraft.
00;50;53;26 – 00;51;07;23
Unknown
And she’s so excited. She’s showing me your house and all that. And then all of a sudden she goes, oh my God, mom, there’s a dog! There was a dog in the Minecraft, which looks like a Lego. Yeah. And it was in the water. And she and I are like, get the dog out of the water, get the dog out of the water.
00;51;07;23 – 00;51;26;07
Unknown
She got the bone, she got the dog out. It jumped back in and drowned. And we both were bawling. Yeah, it’s fucking Minecraft. It’s a fake ass thing. I know we can’t get out of our own way. I know, I know, but that’s the dumbest example of how it’s on. And then both of us are in the bathroom the rest of the night because we can’t freaking get our shit together.
00;51;26;10 – 00;51;51;06
Unknown
Literally. Right. That’s the dumbest thing ever. But it’s it’s so accurate, right? Which is why when if there’s even a tinge of softness between us, I’m like, I got to talk it out. I got I can’t function, I got it, I know I can’t do it, but does that does that over identification of empathy. So so I’m hearing you say both of you say no, it’s not stupidity.
00;51;51;08 – 00;52;18;27
Unknown
It’s just needing to own at the end of the day, that those of us who are so incredibly emotionally connected are more likely to be manipulated. And in addition to that, with the people who mean the most to us. Yes, I if that was my neighbor or somebody, I think it would be a different reaction. And that is a difference between the two of us.
00;52;18;27 – 00;52;48;16
Unknown
It wouldn’t for me. Right? It could be someone I met on in a bus. Right. And in that it doesn’t end for me. It doesn’t. There’s no bounds around that empathy and that care and that compassion. And if you show me the tiniest, tiniest, tiniest little evidence that there’s some remorse there, some sense of humanity in there, I will grab on to it like the last time, and I’m in a bag.
00;52;48;18 – 00;53;19;12
Unknown
I will just I won’t give up on it. I will be let’s clarify. Let’s clarify. That doesn’t mean you don’t believe in punishment appropriate right. Recourse, any of that. It’s just your emotional empathic response. Yeah, yeah. And join us next week when we talk about, the second part of this okay. Which is is empathy a trauma response?
00;53;19;15 – 00;53;43;29
Unknown
Because you’re saying that I’m as you’re saying that I’m immediately thinking that’s not okay. And where is that coming from and why is that happening? And let’s not keep saying what a beautiful, noble thing that Aaron has all this grand empathy for random strangers and people who do terrible things, and she can always catch on to that humanity.
00;53;44;01 – 00;54;08;29
Unknown
But what happens if we start to reframe that into empathy as a trauma response, as opposed to empathy as an act of nature, of caring deeply for for others? Stay tuned. Stay tuned. Here’s my affirmation card. I know that I am the only one who determines what is and isn’t right for me. I am the final say.
00;54;09;01 – 00;54;31;03
Unknown
Those frickin cards. I’ll never murder anyone. Thank you. Thank you. Because I can’t, I can’t I can’t sit there and be like this to the glass. Oh, I can feel you. Gotta go. You gotta go. And, Rebecca, when you come and visit me again, you have a collect call from Aaron. Oh, yeah. I’m playing board games with my family.
00;54;31;04 – 00;54;42;08
Unknown
Damn it. Aaron’s calling. Hang on. I gotta give her 20 minutes. She gonna tell me what they had to eat again today? Meatloaf again? Good. Good for you.
00;54;42;11 – 00;55;18;10
Unknown
I loved that. Me too. Isn’t empathy amazing? Well. We’re amazing. I don’t know about all that sympathy stuff. That’s fine. I accept you wherever you are. Oh, God, I love you. I love you, too. And if you love us, please like and subscribe to More Love the Power of Empathy podcast wherever you get your podcasts. See you next time.
