00;00;00;00 – 00;00;30;21
Unknown
Empathy is one of those things that everyone sees the beauty in. And no one takes a step to say, is there a point where empathy becomes a response to a past trigger, event, or trigger scenarios that have happened that is actually not helpful? Absolutely. Anymore?
00;00;30;24 – 00;00;53;07
Unknown
Hey, it’s me Erin. Thanks for joining us on the More Love podcast. Do not tell Rebecca, but this podcast is about empathy. She likes people to think she’s dead inside. But the truth is, she’s a big time feeler who has truly helped me uncover that empathy is my superpower. Here she comes. Hey, bestie. Hi, love. What are you doing?
00;00;53;08 – 00;01;21;17
Unknown
Oh, just getting ready to host a podcast. A podcast about what? Our life. Our life as best friends who are more like sisters. Yay! I love this, and I can’t wait to share our stories with the world, especially the ones that involve us pushing each other right to be our most authentic selves. Oh, man. Okay.
00;01;21;20 – 00;01;47;15
Unknown
All right, so this happened. I get a little flier home from school, and it breaks down in health class in elementary school. What types of topics they’re covering in third, fourth and fifth grade. Oh, okay. I know you love that. I love that that’s my new love this. Love it. So when it comes to fourth grade at the very bottom of the little block that talks about what exactly they are covering.
00;01;47;17 – 00;02;14;23
Unknown
It says physical development. And then it says in all caps, girls only. And so what I read it and I’m like, okay, you mean like boobs, right? I don’t know. Yeah. I don’t I had to do some additional information seeking. Okay. So I didn’t know. Then I looked on the fifth grade and fifth grade, basically girls and boys where we’re going to talk about probably birds and the bees at that point.
00;02;14;25 – 00;02;36;20
Unknown
Okay. In fifth grade. I don’t think so. But girls and boys, I don’t think I don’t think they talk about sex in elementary school. I think it’s periods for girls and what dreams for boys. I know I’m 100%, but I still think I was wet. Dream still high in the people 100% positive that they don’t talk about wet dreams with boys in fifth grade.
00;02;36;24 – 00;02;58;14
Unknown
Why? That’s right. That’s not happening. Why? That’s just not a thing that we talk about that we that. Does it happen to boys? No, no, I don’t think we touch that with a ten foot pole. Oh. In health class. Oh. Then what do you talk about with boys? Pubic hair. Yeah, but armpit hair I don’t smelling it. You smell bro.
00;02;58;14 – 00;03;22;26
Unknown
Figure this out last year. Yeah. You smell. You don’t need that. No risk if you’re in your pits. Listen, stink. Listen, I’m trying to figure out at this point why only the girls? Because at menstruation, on. My God, you’re the best. You’re the best. Thank you. Oh, I can’t wait till cools down. Cuz I don’t got no ice.
00;03;22;28 – 00;03;47;06
Unknown
So I’m trying to figure out why. In fourth grade, we’re only talking to the girls about physical development. I would agree that’s. So. I wrote to the health teacher first. Of course you go. Okay. Can’t wait to hear the response. I said thank you for the note you sent home about the health curriculum. My son is in fourth grade and when I was reviewing the topics that would be addressed, I noticed that physical development will be a lesson that is available to girls only.
00;03;47;09 – 00;04;04;12
Unknown
I wondered why this was not as a criticism, but more out of curiosity, could you provide me with some more information? Oh very nice email. Thank you. Sure, it wasn’t taken that way, but it’s fine. Even with, I’m sure, criticism. I’m sure it’s fine. I’m sure they’re like. And at the bottom it says Erin Halligan, a very good doctor.
00;04;04;12 – 00;04;31;23
Unknown
That’s not our business owner and judger of all things I did not know. I wrote, I just wrote. Thank you, comma Erin. Oh, okay, I did I didn’t throw the title around. Yeah, yeah yeah. Everybody’s business. Yeah. So she writes back. Good morning. Thank you so much for reaching out. Our puberty education program starts with girls in fourth grade because on average, girls begin puberty 2 to 3 years before boys.
00;04;31;25 – 00;05;08;12
Unknown
There is also a bit more maturity for our boys when learning about this topic. In fifth grade. Wrong, wrong. Our girls puberty in fourth grade is an additional two sessions outside of the regular scheduled health class and focuses on menstruation along with some other body and emotional changes. Okay, I do still review with all fourth grade classes, personal hygiene as bodies are changing at all different rates, please do not hesitate to ask any additional questions or concerns.
00;05;08;19 – 00;05;31;12
Unknown
I have heard some great reviews on quote The Body Book for boys. Do I already have that? Yeah, we’ve been reading it for two years. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, from a few parents, the had coffee. Smells like my dog’s shit. Oh, that smells like my dog took a shit. And this. It does not smell extra. It’s got it smells like wonderful coffee.
00;05;31;14 – 00;05;54;28
Unknown
It sounds like then smells like dog dookie right here on the floor. Oh, my God, it’s so bad. That’s funny. From. And now. Now, should I take offense? No, because it doesn’t smell like that. No, I didn’t say Scott smells like dog dookie on the floor. I said the coffee. Did you see that? I just stopped? You might have made it, but, like, is it your coffee?
00;05;55;00 – 00;06;14;11
Unknown
Like, is it your coffee shop that makes that coffee? No, but it’s okay. Oh, my God, it’s so bad. It smells like June took a shit on the floor. I don’t care, I don’t think it’s the coffee. We’re not sure what to get you. You know, because I have Cafe Bustelo. But I also have the Dunkin Donuts. And I was like, I don’t know, I’m going to make you cafe Bustelo have you be like, this is too strong.
00;06;14;11 – 00;06;41;27
Unknown
I know that. I don’t talk about getting the chips. Yeah, yeah, that’s right, Cuban chips. Cubans. Yeah, the spicy papi. So she basically tells me that, yeah, I can get body book for boys from parents. If I’m interested on discussing this more at home. Okay. So you can’t let a guy remain confused. I just got that message I remain confused.
00;06;41;29 – 00;07;07;00
Unknown
So I’m hearing that boy is maturity wise are not ready to be talking about physical development. Or girls physical development. No. They separate the girls in the boys. It’s not one classroom at least I’m making a big assumption based on my experience back in elementary school that this was not a group topic. The girls went in one room, the boys went in one room.
00;07;07;00 – 00;07;25;21
Unknown
And they were very gender focused when it came to fair puberty. So fair. Yeah. If you have a oh, a mixed group of boys and girls and you’re like, let’s talk about periods. Yeah, yeah. Now, just so we’re clear, I will be talking to my son. Oh yeah. Oh periods. I will be talking to my son about all of those.
00;07;25;21 – 00;08;01;09
Unknown
Oh, I talked to my girls about it too. Absolutely. I’m aware that that’s not the best course of action in a fourth grade health class. Right. But what I’m confused about is when it comes to physical development, the statement that girls physically develop 2 to 3 years on average earlier than boys. Then my question would be if, if if we know that to be true, I think that’s a medical determination, not a mental determination.
00;08;01;09 – 00;08;21;07
Unknown
Okay. Yeah. Fair. Yeah. So then should I be expecting in health class in three years that my son’s having a physical development section, or are we just going to leave them off completely? Well, that would be what, sixth grade? I think you need the middle school curriculum fifth, sixth or seventh grade, then you need. So in middle school they also have health classes.
00;08;21;07 – 00;08;41;21
Unknown
But at this point they are combined. This is not we’re no longer separating them. The boys will now learn about the periods. The girls will be like, yeah, that’s why I’m a bitch. Every month. It’s like, wow, a bigger conversation. Wow. Yeah. So you’re thinking in sixth or seventh grade, my son is going to get physical development education for his growing body.
00;08;41;21 – 00;09;05;04
Unknown
Yes. No. I think your autism is reading the email literally. And she’s saying on average girls are just maturing faster. So this is why we choose to do it in this area. Totally fair. Yeah. When’s my kid getting physical development education. That’s good. The fifth grade curriculum is does she give you. I had the fifth grade curriculum and we do not discuss physical development.
00;09;05;04 – 00;09;32;22
Unknown
We discuss essentially it doesn’t say birds and the bees, but it’s essentially talks about that that the boys reproductive system separated. But we will start to have those conversations in fifth grade. So we’ve missed the whole lesson on physical development. So we’re going to start talking about that before we talk about physical development. So my my thought was there’s a lot of things we could talk about in physical development that happen for boys.
00;09;32;24 – 00;09;58;15
Unknown
And and so if maturity wise they’re not able to talk about it at this point, which sounds to me like a classroom management problem, not a physical development problem, right? Then I would expect to be seeing that later in the curriculum. I would expect there to be some type of discussion about changing voices, about, testicles and in production of sperm.
00;09;58;20 – 00;10;17;15
Unknown
I would, I think. Isn’t that part of body hair? Yeah. How you stink, right. All the things. So I’m not sure where that happens in the curriculum, because in fourth grade it says only part ons. That was all in middle school for me. But that came up in the school. Okay. I was, you know, I was also in Florida.
00;10;17;17 – 00;10;45;23
Unknown
What what does that mean? Backward ass state. But, and it was also in, you know, in the early 80s. But so you’re telling me my follow up question is, who do I contacted the middle school to find out what the health curriculum is. Because I’m. Really. Yeah. Are you quite. This is needed because what I’m. What I fear is happening here is because boys are not mature enough to be able to handle these conversations at this point.
00;10;45;23 – 00;11;06;14
Unknown
Penis. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. At any point in their life that we have decided that, you know, it’s just easier if we skip over some of those lessons or we let those lessons happen at home. I don’t think so. We don’t engage in those conversations. I don’t think so. I really think that they do think they’re going to have the conversation.
00;11;06;14 – 00;11;40;13
Unknown
I yes. I just don’t know when and where. And I also get the feeling that she’s her emails to you are extremely vague. They’re not pinpointed with specific topics. Therefore your autistic brain is not connecting those dots. So you just need more clarity. You want you want to know with confirmation these things will be discussed. And when, and then you will judge if that’s appropriate or the right timeline, or if it needs to be done differently.
00;11;40;14 – 00;11;57;03
Unknown
And then you will request that your child be brought into the sixth grade health class because we’re at that level. Yeah. Yeah. I’m aware. Right? Yeah. Right. Please give me the sixth grade curriculum. I’ll start teaching it to them now. Yes. So that he’s aware that by the time he’s in sixth grade, he’s like, oh yeah, there’s no nurse all along right?
00;11;57;03 – 00;12;18;23
Unknown
Now, to be fair, I understand I’m not a quote unquote normal parent. We have been talking the same as far away from a normal parent as you can possibly. Yeah, we’ve been talking about bodies. We’ve been talking about consent. We’ve been talking about all these things since the kid was two. You know we have body books that he’ll read at night at bedtime.
00;12;18;25 – 00;12;46;05
Unknown
Right. Like these are just because I really believe that these aren’t conversations that you have one time in the living room when it’s awkward because something comes up that’s like it’s a cumulative conversation that makes it less awkward when I do come up. But I went to college fully intended, intending to be a health teacher. So none of this is weird.
00;12;46;11 – 00;13;05;00
Unknown
That’s why you and I, it’s not weird for me, right? Like. Right. You know, I’ll say this all the time on my girl. You wearing a bra? Look at those torpedoes. Like I’m. No, we’re not doing that, so I guess. Yeah. Get it together. Yeah. You know, because I don’t want it to be weird. I want it to be a conversation.
00;13;05;00 – 00;13;26;07
Unknown
I want it to be all those kinds of things. And, you know, but also, I think it’s really important it at this age. And again, part of it is knowing your child to be having a I need to have a conversation with my son about changes that happen for girls. Right? What that looks like. What that feels like, what their experience is like, what a period is, why a period happened.
00;13;26;10 – 00;13;59;18
Unknown
How are we teaching sex that if we’ve not already taught a boy what a period is, right? Right. You know, and and again, I think that this is crazy talk and I do I do really genuinely understand the limits that come from public education and what should be taught in public education and how, you know, give these people a lot of credit that you’re dealing with an entire spectrum full of people and their maturity levels, in addition to what their own parents feel comfortable or not comfortable about.
00;13;59;19 – 00;14;19;00
Unknown
Don’t don’t negate the fact that every human being is different. There could be a ten year old experiencing her period and going through all of the things, and then there could be a 16 year old in health class who’s nowhere near just based on their genetics and or a fourth grader or fifth grader already gotten their period. I just said that.
00;14;19;00 – 00;14;38;26
Unknown
But yeah. Oh my. I use the ten, ten, ten on the fifth grade, right? You’re right. So there’s there’s a lot of dynamics in there and that you’re you’re trying to have the fish in it out there. And if a child is so far from that, they’re not even going to be engaged or paying attention because it’s like, what?
00;14;39;02 – 00;14;57;01
Unknown
Especially if they’ve never heard it at home, you know. Yeah. Yeah. So I thought that was interesting. Yeah. No I know like I mean I go first to say over here, I go so far as to say to my kids about periods, I’m like people use the word blood doesn’t look like blood. In fact come here.
00;14;57;03 – 00;15;18;12
Unknown
This is what it looks like, you know, because it’s so confusing. Even on the TV commercials, they’re using water to show a red, red glitter, right? Like just what? Red. Which is my favorite. This makes no sense. Yeah. So. Wow. Yeah. It just it does make it such a beautiful process every month, doesn’t it? Red color comes out of my crotch.
00;15;18;12 – 00;15;36;13
Unknown
Come on. So it’s it’s just really interesting to see how that all plays out. But, I’m just asking the questions over here. I get. All right. I got three questions. Yeah, I already have the bunny, the parent kill the parent note that got sent home. I know I don’t do that. Absolutely I did, I did I have a lot of thoughts on it.
00;15;36;13 – 00;15;52;10
Unknown
Yeah. Did I say, you know, maybe this should look different. Yeah. But I didn’t go there. Yeah. I just focused on the facts. Yeah. I’m really doing a good job with that lately. Good for you. All right. What kind of hit people you got for us? I pick the card. You pick the card? Yeah. It’s, the Ace of Swords.
00;15;52;10 – 00;16;14;10
Unknown
So the swords is, Yeah. That my hand now I forgot the swords represents air, and it’s the realm of thought and mental energy. Okay, so. All right, let’s see if this applies. Yeah. He’s the swords like lamps of lucidity. The Ace of Swords signifies a powerful new beginning and an elevated understanding of the world around you. Way to elevate your consciousness, bro.
00;16;14;12 – 00;16;42;03
Unknown
I can’t. No, the blade is sharp. It’s not used for mincing. It cuts through malarkey and gets to the point. It offers clear thinking, honest communication, creative vision, and the moments. Consider this card a cosmic Lasik procedure that’ll remedy years of cloudy sight. Focus and epiphanies abound. Bring in the orchestra and scene you love. I hate him so much I don’t even know what you just said.
00;16;42;06 – 00;17;04;19
Unknown
I don’t even know what you just said because it was so frickin flowery and ridiculous and metaphorical from bro getting clarity. Can you clarify for me? Use your Lasik in a clear sense. That’s it. We’re getting rid of the cloudiness, okay? We’re not going to mince up everything. We’re going to take the chunks. We’re going to look at it with crystal clear vision because we just got the Lasik, okay.
00;17;04;20 – 00;17;20;25
Unknown
And we’re going to move forward with whatever that means. We don’t need to dissect all of it. No. Maybe that’s a hint to you. Yeah. That’s just what the health curriculum go. Yeah. And keep doing. You just do my duties, do my own, keep doing medication. Hey, guys, come on down to the end of the cul de sac.
00;17;20;26 – 00;17;56;16
Unknown
Karen’s running a health education session down here. That’s right, that’s right. And when we’re in the shower, wash your pits, wash the feet. Don’t just let the soap go down from your hair and think that’s clean in your body. Okay, I know we’re no longer in there supervising, but let’s be real clear. All right? Last week, we talked about a murderous show where this woman was giving a tremendous amount of empathy and love and compassion to her husband, who had killed their daughter and lied and lied about it for over 30 years.
00;17;56;18 – 00;18;33;17
Unknown
And I ended that show by asking, is that empathy? The original question was, is can empathy ever be stupidity? And what that ended up turning into is, is empathy ever a trauma response, or can empathy be a trauma response? And I think this topic is fascinating, very hard for me to talk about because it it really it’s very alive and well for me as empathy could potentially be a trauma response instead of just empathy, and one that’s alive and well for me too.
00;18;33;19 – 00;18;54;20
Unknown
Is that so? I’m not an opposite here. I’m not sure about Scott, but okay, I very much feel the same way that you do when it comes to that. Okay. Which is which is probably why I avoided at all costs. But interesting that you’re avoiding it and I’m embracing it. And both could be trauma responses. Right.
00;18;54;23 – 00;19;39;15
Unknown
So let’s talk for a minute about why empathy could be a trauma response okay. And I don’t know a ton about this topic. But I can tell you from what I’ve seen one of the things that’s been most compelling for me is the thought that empathy serves as people pleasing. And empathy serves as chameleon like behavior. And I have seen that when you are the child in your family who either fears abandonment or fears that you will not be liked or loved, that there’s some degree of conditional associated with that real or imagined.
00;19;39;17 – 00;20;16;15
Unknown
That empathy serves as the bond to constantly keep you in the favored position. So if you’re my mom and I fear that if I do the wrong thing you’re going to remove love from me or you’re going to be very disapproving of something that I’ve done or because you’re an empath and you feel everything, you just feel the energy shift and you just know there may be no words, there may be no things taken away from you.
00;20;16;16 – 00;20;46;29
Unknown
You just know because the air has shifted in the room. Because you’re so hypersensitive to that happening. Yes. And so you don’t want that to happen. Therefore you become a people pleaser just because the act of feeling that is so unbearable and intense. So the the people pleasing comes about with I’m going to quickly recognize what is and is not favorable for you.
00;20;47;01 – 00;21;23;06
Unknown
I’m going to change my behavior to be in line with that, which will make you, think of me in a positive way. It was going to reduce the possibility that I may not be in your good stead in some way, shape or form. I just realized I’m 100% teaching my children to do this. Wow. Actively teaching to be empathic now.
00;21;23;08 – 00;21;52;19
Unknown
Well, you’re calling it a people. People pleasing, pleasing. I don’t I wouldn’t do define it as that, but I am 100%. When something happens, I pull them in aside and I say, do you see what just happened there? They’re like, yeah, I don’t like it. I said, here’s how you fix it and continue to engage immediately because of fear of what for them, fear of confrontation, that they might have to have a conversation with somebody and then they aren’t.
00;21;52;19 – 00;22;21;21
Unknown
They don’t understand why that conversation is happening. I, any any of that being excluded, that or well, anything that’s not keep the peace. It’s keep the peace and move forward. Here’s, here’s how we’re doing it. Now, does that mean change your internal thoughts or change how you really feel or anything like that? Absolutely not. It just means do what you need to do in the moment and then get out of there.
00;22;21;24 – 00;22;50;23
Unknown
That’s empathy. Is it? Or is it different? I don’t know. Or is it using empathy as a vehicle to. Like empathy in the form of I’m able to read that this situation didn’t go really well. So I’m I’m really over empathizing with the situation and not because I genuinely care about the situation, but because I need to keep myself safe.
00;22;50;26 – 00;23;12;25
Unknown
So like, empathy is the vehicle. In that case, I think so. And teaching them to very quickly analyze, is this worth the battle? And you can determine that based on that other person, how they respond, how they talk, how they engage, and you should know immediately if this is worth it. And if it’s not, here’s what you do.
00;23;12;28 – 00;23;35;18
Unknown
How does so you respond to that very easily because she’s she’s she’s actually more clear than Taylor. Hypersensitive. Yeah. To people’s thoughts, feelings and emotions. Yes. But she’s also doesn’t come across to me as a people pleaser. But neither does Taylor. That’s why I have to teach them because I’m like because they’re always confused. They’re like I don’t understand.
00;23;35;19 – 00;23;57;29
Unknown
And I’m like okay well here let me let me share, share that with you. And then they might get it immediately. And then I watch them do it. So do they always pick up on the sensitivity of what’s happening. Yes. But their response if if they didn’t have the lens of empathic trauma associated with that, their response would be what, just to leave it be like, that was really weird.
00;23;57;29 – 00;24;17;06
Unknown
What just happened over there and walk away? I don’t know, because I, I don’t think I’ve ever let it really get to that point. Fair. I really don’t I really don’t know. Now with me. Absolutely. They tell me how they feel because I don’t make them feel bad about it. I don’t make them feel bad about it.
00;24;17;06 – 00;24;42;02
Unknown
They we have conversations, all those kinds of things. But when they’re up against somebody else, who would do that, they’re confused. And so I say to them, well, here’s here’s how you fix that. And then I give, you know, when they’re up against someone who would what, call them out on it or, or say something that doesn’t make sense to them, I don’t know, I can’t.
00;24;42;02 – 00;25;10;01
Unknown
And then it’s hard to give an example. Are you fearful that they would be in that situation, or that they would say something rude back, or that they wouldn’t know how to respond? What part are we protecting? I think me because if something were to happen to them, they would come to me for clarification, and then that person would then have to have a conversation with me, and I would have to have boundaries and a line, and I’m not willing to do that.
00;25;10;08 – 00;25;37;10
Unknown
It’s like secondary empathy trauma going on. I’m grooming my children to not have to get into arguments or disagreements with other people, because that means I have to step up to the plate, potentially. And I don’t even want the possibility of that happening because that’s going to be so uncomfortable, or I’m going to have to set a boundary, or I’m going to have to give in and not want to, and I’d rather just not deal with it at all.
00;25;37;13 – 00;26;02;21
Unknown
Wow, that’s frickin crazy and profound. I know, and I’m not proud of it. It’s something that I’m I don’t like about myself. It’s something that I’m. I’m not. It’s my it’s my where I feel most comfortable. Even though it’s sad, it’s very sad. And so that’s part of the reason I keep the circle small, because it’s just it’s just easier.
00;26;02;23 – 00;26;20;29
Unknown
It’s just easier. But it’s like, can you go over and fix that, please, so that mom doesn’t have to fix it later on. Right. Is that that’s the feeling can. Oh. Did you just notice what happened there. Can you, can you go over and give her the soccer ball I know that no, don’t give her that soccer ball.
00;26;20;29 – 00;26;40;11
Unknown
Not like that, not like that. I wish I could give a good explanation, I just can’t. It’s not like that. It’s not like a sharing thing. It’s not like a give up. All of your whatever. It’s a I’m not going head to head with someone that it’s not worth it. It’s just not worth it. That’s that’s the line.
00;26;40;13 – 00;26;48;14
Unknown
Do you think it’d be different if you felt incredibly confident going head to head?
00;26;48;16 – 00;27;15;01
Unknown
If that was one of your superpowers was I’m incredibly decisive about what is right and what is wrong. I’m very clear that I’m not going to address the situation with you unless I’m very clear what’s going on. Bring on that conversation all day, every day. Do you think that that would change? Maybe. Maybe. I’ve never really dove into that component, but maybe because that’s one of the differences between us, right.
00;27;15;03 – 00;27;46;01
Unknown
I will handle any difficult conversation any day. Bring that right on over to me. I’m happy to have that conversation. I’m also happy to own, if my child is the reason why this conversation is happening, happening and it’s uncomfortable right. So it’s not always like my kids. Always. Right. But I feel very confident in having those difficult conversations, which then makes me less likely to have to manage Carter’s behavior, because it doesn’t matter what you throw at me.
00;27;46;01 – 00;28;08;08
Unknown
You know what, I got it. Where it does come up with me and tell me if you feel like this is the same is if Carter does something that doesn’t feel socially appropriate. An example would be someone coming over to our house and saying, Carter, how are you liking school? He’s like, it’s good. And then it gets quiet for a minute.
00;28;08;08 – 00;28;33;27
Unknown
What’s wrong with that? And then they’re like, well, what do you really love about it? It’s like, I don’t know. Oh, well, it was really good to see you. Carter. Had a great time. A great time. With you today, he’s like, yeah. It’s at that moment that I feel this strong desire to step in because I’m like, oh, boy, that feels again, if it’s a reflection of me, right?
00;28;33;27 – 00;28;55;11
Unknown
Like I’ve not maybe appropriately taught him pushback. That’s or like, I’m not thinking that. What is wrong with his social connection skills? You know, like just so shy. That’s all I would think. Yeah. Well, and then maybe that’s my own stuff. Yeah. I wouldn’t think anything about that conversation. Like I read whatever in your kid. Kids don’t want to to chat unless you’re my kids who just don’t shut up.
00;28;55;11 – 00;29;14;27
Unknown
But they’re very. Your kids wouldn’t have that type of conversation with me. They wouldn’t chit chat with, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know what they want. They wouldn’t be like school sign right there. Because it was so good to see you. I love you so much. Yeah. Never. Never. Right. So. But it wouldn’t even bother me if they did.
00;29;14;29 – 00;29;32;21
Unknown
I want to be like, excuse me. You it. I don’t think so. I don’t know, I, I don’t have experience so I don’t know keep going I don’t know, I can remember times being at your house and I’m saying something to Sawyer and so you’re not paying attention to me. She’s doing whatever hoop all she does on the TV or whatever.
00;29;32;21 – 00;29;50;26
Unknown
And you’re like, Sawyer, no, she has technology at her. I know I do. I put that and she’s like, yeah, she did. And you’re like, oh, you talk to her. If she ask you a question, I try to talk to her. Maybe, maybe will double down and you will go in there and you’ll be like, get here and ask more questions.
00;29;51;01 – 00;30;08;16
Unknown
Ask more questions. How about you ask some more questions? Because you want to make sure that you’ve gotten the point across real effing clear that that TV is not more important than the conversation that she’s supposed to be having with me. And then you’ll end it by saying, do you feel satisfied with that conversation that you’re in? Because if you don’t, why don’t you ask some more questions?
00;30;08;20 – 00;30;31;19
Unknown
But is that because it’s you? I don’t know, I don’t know. Well, that’s a great question. Is it? Oh, I can also see myself walking right in there and turning the TV up. I know, but is that just me? I don’t know what else to say about other people that might show up with the guys. Customer what if it was Scott oh, what a Scott key.
00;30;31;22 – 00;30;50;00
Unknown
Here’s what I will say when I when when they like get a ride home. Yeah. From dance class or whatever. The minute they get out of the car I’m like, did you have a conversation? Did you say things because I’m actually annoyed. You know what? Now that I think about it, yeah, I’m annoyed when I’m trying to engage with kids and they’re like, me, right?
00;30;50;00 – 00;31;13;16
Unknown
I’m like, did your parents not teach you manners? Right. There you go. Full circle. Exactly. Yeah, right. I mean, that’s not very often I volunteer to take kids places and so that the protection for me, the protection for you seems like it’s coming out from, like, I don’t want to have to engage with this parent if my kid is doing something that’s not, you know, of recognizing what’s happening in the room.
00;31;13;19 – 00;31;31;16
Unknown
And for me, it’s like, I know that that’s an area where my kid is really trying very hard and is going to social skills groups and whatever. But in some ways it does feel like a reflection on me when he is not engaging in that social way that that people will be like, what the hell, you know, have conversations with them.
00;31;31;16 – 00;31;51;06
Unknown
You know, I, I picked up, my daughter from school and she’s like, of course, at the last minute, can you bring Logan and his sister home to, And I’m going to say no is her boyfriend and her boyfriend sister. And they get in the car, I’m like, hey, how’s it going? Silence. I’m like, good chat.
00;31;51;08 – 00;32;10;06
Unknown
But I don’t think, what’s wrong with their parents? Why? Their parents obviously screwed them up in some way. Oh, yeah, I don’t think that either. I just think that they’re just they’re shy and they don’t want to talk, you know? And I’m not the kind of person that’s going to continue to make them feel uncomfortable by drilling at them and go, what?
00;32;10;07 – 00;32;24;22
Unknown
What’s the matter? Cat got to talk. Don’t you talk to me. What happened in school today? Nothing. You know, I’d be like, just shut up. They don’t want to talk. I’m forcing the talk because I hated that when I was a kid. And people asking me questions and I don’t really want to talk because I’m not comfortable.
00;32;24;24 – 00;32;47;06
Unknown
But then talk about empathy as a people pleaser. I was the kid who would get in the car and would have all of the full blown adult conversation. You also very uncomfortable with silence? Yes. Yeah. I’m the same way. I’m. We talked about that at this group. I am so uncomfortable chit chatting because if there is an awkward silence, I don’t know what to do with it.
00;32;47;06 – 00;33;03;27
Unknown
So then I start asking questions. So I would rather just not go at all. And so what I found myself with this group even though I’m running the event, I’m not part of the event. So I would always be behind my computer with my earphones on, pretending I’m on calls and stuff working because I don’t want to chit chat.
00;33;03;28 – 00;33;21;23
Unknown
Yeah, not that I can’t. Yeah I just I don’t like it. Where Taylor would be right in there. Taylor would be right in the middle. Hey guys. Oh look at she is she’s she’s Philip. My husband is the social director of the world. He knows every single person in the neighborhood. I don’t even know my neighbors names.
00;33;21;29 – 00;33;39;07
Unknown
Yeah. It’s just that’s how I run a joke. Is that whenever, Rebecca’s family comes over every year to put up my Christmas tree, and we need fill up because that tall one on the ladder, tall. And he has only one who can reach the top of the tree on the ladder. And we’re always looking around. And he’s in chat with John and Allen always.
00;33;39;11 – 00;33;55;19
Unknown
And he’s been in there for our not only that, but if he’s out smoking on the driveway, he’s talking to whoever else is outside her. Yeah, I’m like, yeah, we’re here for a reason. Show who’s running for judge? Yeah. Oh yeah. That’s just that’s how he is. So he he actually maintains all that. We’re going to a wedding.
00;33;55;19 – 00;34;11;12
Unknown
I’m like, dreading going to a wedding coming up because I’m going to have to socialize. Now, granted, I know some people, but he this is his work friends. Guess where I’m going to be? At the table by myself. Yeah. Scroll on your phone. Yeah. Because he doesn’t think, oh, he’s not savvy enough to bring me around and engage me with their conversations.
00;34;11;12 – 00;34;32;12
Unknown
He’s just so excited to hang with his people. But is that an empathy rest my trauma response from me? No. From him. Oh, I don’t know. Right. So again you have this like I don’t know like what what is the true emotion versus what is just a response to some way that we’ve been conditioned to, to do those types of things?
00;34;32;13 – 00;34;54;16
Unknown
It’s a great question, right I don’t know. So now that I have gotten a little bit more in touch with my neurodivergent, it’s been fascinating to me to be clear about what I really want to do and what I really want to say, versus what I previously have and would be saying. They are drastically different, right? Every time I see things tick tock or I’m not took to Instagram that I’m like, oh my God, Aaron, is this you?
00;34;54;16 – 00;35;10;07
Unknown
And then I’ll send it to you. And and it was all triggered from someone saying to you, do you even know who you are? And then you had said to me a couple of years ago, you’re like, I don’t know what I like to wear. You know, like those kinds of conversations. And I thought that was really interesting.
00;35;10;07 – 00;35;30;17
Unknown
I’m like, what are you talking about? You’ve always been decisive. But then when you really analyze it, it’s like, am I? I’m incredibly. It also came up because it was like, cut, how can you be so adamantly close with so many individual people? Like, I’m super close with me and I’m so hyper close with you, right? I’m super close with Renee, super close with Kelly.
00;35;30;19 – 00;35;51;18
Unknown
But they’re all independent relationships. Yeah. And it would never be the case that I was like, you know, what’s a good idea? Let’s get everyone together. That actually sounds horrendous to me, right? Because that’s just because then you’d have to manage all the individual relationships and then people would be confused. And then. But I do have very genuine, close, very intense relationships.
00;35;51;18 – 00;36;21;20
Unknown
Absolutely. With these individual people. Yeah. But then that can sometimes come off as how you and I get this a lot. How can you be so close with Rebecca and also so close with this other person who were under incredibly different crazy, ridiculous, different people? Yeah. And then it was through that conversation that it was like, Am I just masterful at figuring out who that person is?
00;36;21;20 – 00;36;46;17
Unknown
And then how do we have the best possible relationship based on those factors? Is that me flexing who I really am and being different based on those people? And or is that am I am? Is that who I am? Am I just that person? And you’re right, that’s where it started. And then now all these like, Instagram posts keep coming up and they’re so validating.
00;36;46;17 – 00;37;29;15
Unknown
Oh my gosh, that is so true. Yeah, yeah. But it’s really made me start to question this empathy as a trauma response. And then I’m like, well, what was the trauma? What what were the past situations. And the only thing that can come up for me, and this is again in my, conscious mind because who knows what’s happened in I don’t mind, but in my conscious mind, I know my parents were incredibly loving and supportive and would be there no matter what, but I do know that something about their parenting style was conditional for me, and I learned a lot of that through having a brother that was seven years older.
00;37;29;17 – 00;37;58;16
Unknown
So they never shunned him. They never pushed him to the side. They were never like, oh my God, we don’t love you anymore. But I was receiving secondary messages quite consistently about appropriate and inappropriate behavior, something as simple as, is it okay for my brother to be out until 1030 at night when his curfew was 10:00? And I’m watching for that, and I’m hyper vigilant, to your point.
00;37;58;16 – 00;38;19;29
Unknown
Like very, very clear cut about how is this going to go down. And then I might hear a conversation that was because you couldn’t be home at ten instead of 1030. You will be going to bed 30 minutes earlier or there is some quid pro quo that would happen. Everything. Who has consequence reaction, consequence action, reaction action. Right.
00;38;20;03 – 00;38;49;06
Unknown
There was no variable or room for flexibility, which I interpreted as conditional. You don’t come home at 1030. You are wrong. If you are wrong, then there will be a consequence to that action. It was an extreme rigidity if you will. And so when I think about those secondary messages I was receiving and then thinking well how did I turn out to be a very loving, caring, kind, empathic, flexible.
00;38;49;08 – 00;39;11;04
Unknown
Sometimes in the beginning of having a child a little too flexible. And that was very much a response for me of not wanting to have that rigidity of conditional love. That makes a lot of sense, right? That the only thing consciously that I can point that to. I think what’s also hard is when we use the word trauma.
00;39;11;07 – 00;39;37;07
Unknown
Because trauma in my mind is associated with assault, usually bad things that happen. Yeah. And so then when you look at the things that shape you. Yeah, that are also classified as quote, trauma, we need another word and I’m sure there is one. But because I don’t like saying that just like you, you’d never want your parents to hear you’re growing up, planted these traumas, right?
00;39;37;07 – 00;40;05;12
Unknown
Because it’s not true. Right? What is true is they plant these seeds that informed how you were going to be as a human, and they worked incredibly well in certain situations. Sure. It just had an adverse side effect that made me a incredibly empathic not in a good way, but like an overboard, empathic. What we were talking about last week was the the woman who’s whose husband killed all these people.
00;40;05;12 – 00;40;39;01
Unknown
And I’m like, I get it. I totally get why we still care about this man, right? And I’m like, logically, that doesn’t make sense to me. Logically, that feels so incredibly wrong. And yet empathy is one of those things that everyone sees the beauty in. And no one takes a step to say, is there a point where empathy becomes a response to a past trigger event, or trigger scenarios that have happened that is actually not helpful absolutely anymore?
00;40;39;03 – 00;41;07;11
Unknown
And where are we talking about that and in what space? And then how do we carve out space to talk about that without, to your point, making trauma on one side and empathy on on the other? I that’s always been an issue I have with common place use of clinical terms. Yeah. There’s a whole that’s across it called the mental health Literacy project.
00;41;07;14 – 00;41;38;21
Unknown
That is focused on this because when you use the term trauma in a clinical setting, there are very specific DSM diagnosable conditions that make it trauma. When we use the term PTSD, it is only because the trauma trigger has had such a lasting effect for over six months. That is termed into that level of experience. But we throw the term PTSD around like it’s anyone’s experience.
00;41;38;21 – 00;42;07;20
Unknown
Who has struggled with something in their past. That’s right, that’s right. We use the term bipolar or schizophrenia to talk about the weather, right? Well, it’s the same concept as using the word gay, right? That’s gay. That’s when it’s Harden. Right. He says that anymore. Except you two. Right? Right. Right. It’s it’s the use of these terms without psycho really thinking about the
00;42;07;23 – 00;42;33;29
Unknown
Yeah. Psycho crazy. You know, it’s, it’s if we don’t have other terms to describe events that happened in our life that were impactful, not necessarily in a positive way, but, you know, like a life of that, a life situation or whatever that doesn’t reach the point of a certifiable term trauma. If we don’t have a word for that, then everything becomes trauma.
00;42;34;03 – 00;42;57;05
Unknown
And I think people utilize those certain words as emphasis, you know, like to make their point clearer or to really, really, like hit it home you to see. Yeah. How bad the situation. It may not be diagnosed PTSD but this is a true trigger right? Right. And I need to over exemplify it so that you know, you get it.
00;42;57;05 – 00;43;43;13
Unknown
Don’t touch this part. Correct. But then but then for someone like me where language matters so much I know. Right. It’s really hard. That becomes a challenge. Yeah. And I I’ve seen a couple people on our Facebook group, which is really just you and me at this point since, so a couple of you blaming us, talking about empathy as a trauma response, and I, I wonder how that changes empathy if we do recognize places where empathy is being done out of a trauma or a past life experience that has not been favorable versus what what what does that turn empathy into?
00;43;43;14 – 00;44;08;03
Unknown
If we just talk about pure empathy? Because I do believe I also have pure empathy in addition to having empathy as a response. And what’s the difference? And how do you know? And then how do you distinguish or acknowledge when you’re sort of crossing over into some of those places that’s important?
00;44;08;05 – 00;44;34;19
Unknown
Yes. And I don’t have an answer. Right. That would require me to go into my inner feelings and think about it. And I’m going to say no. So let me tell you this. There’s hope for us. Okay, good. Because as a new ten, ten year eligible, I guess I’m not tenure eligible yet. Tenure track professor. Oh, okay. At Brockport, I have a research agenda.
00;44;34;21 – 00;45;09;12
Unknown
Okay. And I have the next five years to produce four articles around my research agenda. Okay. What are we what are we looking at? I woke up at, like, 230 in the morning. Okay? And like dark Angel, Michelangelo’s standing at the end of my bed. Oh. That’s creepy. Okay. It came to me that the empathy with boundaries. What we’ve developed our business that we’ve not yet launched yet, and what we are talking about here and empathy with boundaries is that is my research agenda.
00;45;09;12 – 00;45;34;26
Unknown
Great. That is what I want to be like. Brené Brown with vulnerability. Yeah, empathy with boundaries is what Doctor Erin Halligan Avery is going to be known for. I love the research field. I love that now. A lot of what I do here in this work is related to nonprofits. But I came up with this entire list of, like, empathy and leadership in nonprofits, empathy and volunteerism in nonprofits.
00;45;34;26 – 00;45;55;15
Unknown
How about just empathy in the type of people that work in these fields, right. Empathy and codependency, empathy and boundaries. You know, so I really want to get to the empathy and boundaries in nonprofits when you’re dealing with people, what what are the what are the characteristics of people who tend to go into nonprofit work? And then what are their past histories?
00;45;55;15 – 00;46;20;11
Unknown
And can we draw any connections between their past history has past histories and empathy as a trauma response, like those kind of things, I think is really where I want to focus. A lot of my efforts I was getting incredibly overwhelmed about what types of things I could do my research agenda on, and I’m like, at the end of the day, I am both empathy and boundaries.
00;46;20;13 – 00;46;54;27
Unknown
And yet, even as someone in this space still has not figured out how to successfully navigate that across multiple different, you know, avenues. And I know someone like me needs more information in order to better understand that. And what’s going to be the most exciting for me is when you conduct your actual studies, because you’ll approach it from such a quantitative, qualitative point of view that it will just be freaking magic.
00;46;54;27 – 00;47;10;04
Unknown
It’ll be really cool. It’s going to be fascinating. I agree, we’re going to be leveling up this podcast, or I’m going to come in and I’m like, you’re never going to believe, right? I just found out early preliminary results hot off the press right, right, right. Let’s discuss these. What what could this mean? What what is our hypothesis?
00;47;10;04 – 00;47;28;12
Unknown
Correct. Because we have a lot of these conversations. Maybe our listeners will give us some hypotheses. I mean, that’d be great. When that be awesome, that’d be great. So we call that a level up. Exciting. Well, new journeys, new journeys. Here I am finishing us off with a that sounded wrong. I know I was the going to say that sounded wrong.
00;47;28;12 – 00;47;54;10
Unknown
What? We way back to our, puberty conversation that we had in the beginning of the show that I came up with our intention part. I’m excited for my happy ending. I know that life is only limited by my imagination. I am dreaming bigger. Love it with letters I. You’re an idiot, sweet idiot, I loved that. Me too.
00;47;54;10 – 00;48;28;02
Unknown
Isn’t empathy amazing? Well we’re amazing. I don’t know about all that sympathy stuff. That’s fine. I accept you wherever you are. Oh, God, I love you. I love you too. And if you love us, please like and subscribe to More Love the Power of Empathy podcast wherever you get your podcasts. See you next time.
Unknown
Empathy is one of those things that everyone sees the beauty in. And no one takes a step to say, is there a point where empathy becomes a response to a past trigger, event, or trigger scenarios that have happened that is actually not helpful? Absolutely. Anymore?
00;00;30;24 – 00;00;53;07
Unknown
Hey, it’s me Erin. Thanks for joining us on the More Love podcast. Do not tell Rebecca, but this podcast is about empathy. She likes people to think she’s dead inside. But the truth is, she’s a big time feeler who has truly helped me uncover that empathy is my superpower. Here she comes. Hey, bestie. Hi, love. What are you doing?
00;00;53;08 – 00;01;21;17
Unknown
Oh, just getting ready to host a podcast. A podcast about what? Our life. Our life as best friends who are more like sisters. Yay! I love this, and I can’t wait to share our stories with the world, especially the ones that involve us pushing each other right to be our most authentic selves. Oh, man. Okay.
00;01;21;20 – 00;01;47;15
Unknown
All right, so this happened. I get a little flier home from school, and it breaks down in health class in elementary school. What types of topics they’re covering in third, fourth and fifth grade. Oh, okay. I know you love that. I love that that’s my new love this. Love it. So when it comes to fourth grade at the very bottom of the little block that talks about what exactly they are covering.
00;01;47;17 – 00;02;14;23
Unknown
It says physical development. And then it says in all caps, girls only. And so what I read it and I’m like, okay, you mean like boobs, right? I don’t know. Yeah. I don’t I had to do some additional information seeking. Okay. So I didn’t know. Then I looked on the fifth grade and fifth grade, basically girls and boys where we’re going to talk about probably birds and the bees at that point.
00;02;14;25 – 00;02;36;20
Unknown
Okay. In fifth grade. I don’t think so. But girls and boys, I don’t think I don’t think they talk about sex in elementary school. I think it’s periods for girls and what dreams for boys. I know I’m 100%, but I still think I was wet. Dream still high in the people 100% positive that they don’t talk about wet dreams with boys in fifth grade.
00;02;36;24 – 00;02;58;14
Unknown
Why? That’s right. That’s not happening. Why? That’s just not a thing that we talk about that we that. Does it happen to boys? No, no, I don’t think we touch that with a ten foot pole. Oh. In health class. Oh. Then what do you talk about with boys? Pubic hair. Yeah, but armpit hair I don’t smelling it. You smell bro.
00;02;58;14 – 00;03;22;26
Unknown
Figure this out last year. Yeah. You smell. You don’t need that. No risk if you’re in your pits. Listen, stink. Listen, I’m trying to figure out at this point why only the girls? Because at menstruation, on. My God, you’re the best. You’re the best. Thank you. Oh, I can’t wait till cools down. Cuz I don’t got no ice.
00;03;22;28 – 00;03;47;06
Unknown
So I’m trying to figure out why. In fourth grade, we’re only talking to the girls about physical development. I would agree that’s. So. I wrote to the health teacher first. Of course you go. Okay. Can’t wait to hear the response. I said thank you for the note you sent home about the health curriculum. My son is in fourth grade and when I was reviewing the topics that would be addressed, I noticed that physical development will be a lesson that is available to girls only.
00;03;47;09 – 00;04;04;12
Unknown
I wondered why this was not as a criticism, but more out of curiosity, could you provide me with some more information? Oh very nice email. Thank you. Sure, it wasn’t taken that way, but it’s fine. Even with, I’m sure, criticism. I’m sure it’s fine. I’m sure they’re like. And at the bottom it says Erin Halligan, a very good doctor.
00;04;04;12 – 00;04;31;23
Unknown
That’s not our business owner and judger of all things I did not know. I wrote, I just wrote. Thank you, comma Erin. Oh, okay, I did I didn’t throw the title around. Yeah, yeah yeah. Everybody’s business. Yeah. So she writes back. Good morning. Thank you so much for reaching out. Our puberty education program starts with girls in fourth grade because on average, girls begin puberty 2 to 3 years before boys.
00;04;31;25 – 00;05;08;12
Unknown
There is also a bit more maturity for our boys when learning about this topic. In fifth grade. Wrong, wrong. Our girls puberty in fourth grade is an additional two sessions outside of the regular scheduled health class and focuses on menstruation along with some other body and emotional changes. Okay, I do still review with all fourth grade classes, personal hygiene as bodies are changing at all different rates, please do not hesitate to ask any additional questions or concerns.
00;05;08;19 – 00;05;31;12
Unknown
I have heard some great reviews on quote The Body Book for boys. Do I already have that? Yeah, we’ve been reading it for two years. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, from a few parents, the had coffee. Smells like my dog’s shit. Oh, that smells like my dog took a shit. And this. It does not smell extra. It’s got it smells like wonderful coffee.
00;05;31;14 – 00;05;54;28
Unknown
It sounds like then smells like dog dookie right here on the floor. Oh, my God, it’s so bad. That’s funny. From. And now. Now, should I take offense? No, because it doesn’t smell like that. No, I didn’t say Scott smells like dog dookie on the floor. I said the coffee. Did you see that? I just stopped? You might have made it, but, like, is it your coffee?
00;05;55;00 – 00;06;14;11
Unknown
Like, is it your coffee shop that makes that coffee? No, but it’s okay. Oh, my God, it’s so bad. It smells like June took a shit on the floor. I don’t care, I don’t think it’s the coffee. We’re not sure what to get you. You know, because I have Cafe Bustelo. But I also have the Dunkin Donuts. And I was like, I don’t know, I’m going to make you cafe Bustelo have you be like, this is too strong.
00;06;14;11 – 00;06;41;27
Unknown
I know that. I don’t talk about getting the chips. Yeah, yeah, that’s right, Cuban chips. Cubans. Yeah, the spicy papi. So she basically tells me that, yeah, I can get body book for boys from parents. If I’m interested on discussing this more at home. Okay. So you can’t let a guy remain confused. I just got that message I remain confused.
00;06;41;29 – 00;07;07;00
Unknown
So I’m hearing that boy is maturity wise are not ready to be talking about physical development. Or girls physical development. No. They separate the girls in the boys. It’s not one classroom at least I’m making a big assumption based on my experience back in elementary school that this was not a group topic. The girls went in one room, the boys went in one room.
00;07;07;00 – 00;07;25;21
Unknown
And they were very gender focused when it came to fair puberty. So fair. Yeah. If you have a oh, a mixed group of boys and girls and you’re like, let’s talk about periods. Yeah, yeah. Now, just so we’re clear, I will be talking to my son. Oh yeah. Oh periods. I will be talking to my son about all of those.
00;07;25;21 – 00;08;01;09
Unknown
Oh, I talked to my girls about it too. Absolutely. I’m aware that that’s not the best course of action in a fourth grade health class. Right. But what I’m confused about is when it comes to physical development, the statement that girls physically develop 2 to 3 years on average earlier than boys. Then my question would be if, if if we know that to be true, I think that’s a medical determination, not a mental determination.
00;08;01;09 – 00;08;21;07
Unknown
Okay. Yeah. Fair. Yeah. So then should I be expecting in health class in three years that my son’s having a physical development section, or are we just going to leave them off completely? Well, that would be what, sixth grade? I think you need the middle school curriculum fifth, sixth or seventh grade, then you need. So in middle school they also have health classes.
00;08;21;07 – 00;08;41;21
Unknown
But at this point they are combined. This is not we’re no longer separating them. The boys will now learn about the periods. The girls will be like, yeah, that’s why I’m a bitch. Every month. It’s like, wow, a bigger conversation. Wow. Yeah. So you’re thinking in sixth or seventh grade, my son is going to get physical development education for his growing body.
00;08;41;21 – 00;09;05;04
Unknown
Yes. No. I think your autism is reading the email literally. And she’s saying on average girls are just maturing faster. So this is why we choose to do it in this area. Totally fair. Yeah. When’s my kid getting physical development education. That’s good. The fifth grade curriculum is does she give you. I had the fifth grade curriculum and we do not discuss physical development.
00;09;05;04 – 00;09;32;22
Unknown
We discuss essentially it doesn’t say birds and the bees, but it’s essentially talks about that that the boys reproductive system separated. But we will start to have those conversations in fifth grade. So we’ve missed the whole lesson on physical development. So we’re going to start talking about that before we talk about physical development. So my my thought was there’s a lot of things we could talk about in physical development that happen for boys.
00;09;32;24 – 00;09;58;15
Unknown
And and so if maturity wise they’re not able to talk about it at this point, which sounds to me like a classroom management problem, not a physical development problem, right? Then I would expect to be seeing that later in the curriculum. I would expect there to be some type of discussion about changing voices, about, testicles and in production of sperm.
00;09;58;20 – 00;10;17;15
Unknown
I would, I think. Isn’t that part of body hair? Yeah. How you stink, right. All the things. So I’m not sure where that happens in the curriculum, because in fourth grade it says only part ons. That was all in middle school for me. But that came up in the school. Okay. I was, you know, I was also in Florida.
00;10;17;17 – 00;10;45;23
Unknown
What what does that mean? Backward ass state. But, and it was also in, you know, in the early 80s. But so you’re telling me my follow up question is, who do I contacted the middle school to find out what the health curriculum is. Because I’m. Really. Yeah. Are you quite. This is needed because what I’m. What I fear is happening here is because boys are not mature enough to be able to handle these conversations at this point.
00;10;45;23 – 00;11;06;14
Unknown
Penis. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. At any point in their life that we have decided that, you know, it’s just easier if we skip over some of those lessons or we let those lessons happen at home. I don’t think so. We don’t engage in those conversations. I don’t think so. I really think that they do think they’re going to have the conversation.
00;11;06;14 – 00;11;40;13
Unknown
I yes. I just don’t know when and where. And I also get the feeling that she’s her emails to you are extremely vague. They’re not pinpointed with specific topics. Therefore your autistic brain is not connecting those dots. So you just need more clarity. You want you want to know with confirmation these things will be discussed. And when, and then you will judge if that’s appropriate or the right timeline, or if it needs to be done differently.
00;11;40;14 – 00;11;57;03
Unknown
And then you will request that your child be brought into the sixth grade health class because we’re at that level. Yeah. Yeah. I’m aware. Right? Yeah. Right. Please give me the sixth grade curriculum. I’ll start teaching it to them now. Yes. So that he’s aware that by the time he’s in sixth grade, he’s like, oh yeah, there’s no nurse all along right?
00;11;57;03 – 00;12;18;23
Unknown
Now, to be fair, I understand I’m not a quote unquote normal parent. We have been talking the same as far away from a normal parent as you can possibly. Yeah, we’ve been talking about bodies. We’ve been talking about consent. We’ve been talking about all these things since the kid was two. You know we have body books that he’ll read at night at bedtime.
00;12;18;25 – 00;12;46;05
Unknown
Right. Like these are just because I really believe that these aren’t conversations that you have one time in the living room when it’s awkward because something comes up that’s like it’s a cumulative conversation that makes it less awkward when I do come up. But I went to college fully intended, intending to be a health teacher. So none of this is weird.
00;12;46;11 – 00;13;05;00
Unknown
That’s why you and I, it’s not weird for me, right? Like. Right. You know, I’ll say this all the time on my girl. You wearing a bra? Look at those torpedoes. Like I’m. No, we’re not doing that, so I guess. Yeah. Get it together. Yeah. You know, because I don’t want it to be weird. I want it to be a conversation.
00;13;05;00 – 00;13;26;07
Unknown
I want it to be all those kinds of things. And, you know, but also, I think it’s really important it at this age. And again, part of it is knowing your child to be having a I need to have a conversation with my son about changes that happen for girls. Right? What that looks like. What that feels like, what their experience is like, what a period is, why a period happened.
00;13;26;10 – 00;13;59;18
Unknown
How are we teaching sex that if we’ve not already taught a boy what a period is, right? Right. You know, and and again, I think that this is crazy talk and I do I do really genuinely understand the limits that come from public education and what should be taught in public education and how, you know, give these people a lot of credit that you’re dealing with an entire spectrum full of people and their maturity levels, in addition to what their own parents feel comfortable or not comfortable about.
00;13;59;19 – 00;14;19;00
Unknown
Don’t don’t negate the fact that every human being is different. There could be a ten year old experiencing her period and going through all of the things, and then there could be a 16 year old in health class who’s nowhere near just based on their genetics and or a fourth grader or fifth grader already gotten their period. I just said that.
00;14;19;00 – 00;14;38;26
Unknown
But yeah. Oh my. I use the ten, ten, ten on the fifth grade, right? You’re right. So there’s there’s a lot of dynamics in there and that you’re you’re trying to have the fish in it out there. And if a child is so far from that, they’re not even going to be engaged or paying attention because it’s like, what?
00;14;39;02 – 00;14;57;01
Unknown
Especially if they’ve never heard it at home, you know. Yeah. Yeah. So I thought that was interesting. Yeah. No I know like I mean I go first to say over here, I go so far as to say to my kids about periods, I’m like people use the word blood doesn’t look like blood. In fact come here.
00;14;57;03 – 00;15;18;12
Unknown
This is what it looks like, you know, because it’s so confusing. Even on the TV commercials, they’re using water to show a red, red glitter, right? Like just what? Red. Which is my favorite. This makes no sense. Yeah. So. Wow. Yeah. It just it does make it such a beautiful process every month, doesn’t it? Red color comes out of my crotch.
00;15;18;12 – 00;15;36;13
Unknown
Come on. So it’s it’s just really interesting to see how that all plays out. But, I’m just asking the questions over here. I get. All right. I got three questions. Yeah, I already have the bunny, the parent kill the parent note that got sent home. I know I don’t do that. Absolutely I did, I did I have a lot of thoughts on it.
00;15;36;13 – 00;15;52;10
Unknown
Yeah. Did I say, you know, maybe this should look different. Yeah. But I didn’t go there. Yeah. I just focused on the facts. Yeah. I’m really doing a good job with that lately. Good for you. All right. What kind of hit people you got for us? I pick the card. You pick the card? Yeah. It’s, the Ace of Swords.
00;15;52;10 – 00;16;14;10
Unknown
So the swords is, Yeah. That my hand now I forgot the swords represents air, and it’s the realm of thought and mental energy. Okay, so. All right, let’s see if this applies. Yeah. He’s the swords like lamps of lucidity. The Ace of Swords signifies a powerful new beginning and an elevated understanding of the world around you. Way to elevate your consciousness, bro.
00;16;14;12 – 00;16;42;03
Unknown
I can’t. No, the blade is sharp. It’s not used for mincing. It cuts through malarkey and gets to the point. It offers clear thinking, honest communication, creative vision, and the moments. Consider this card a cosmic Lasik procedure that’ll remedy years of cloudy sight. Focus and epiphanies abound. Bring in the orchestra and scene you love. I hate him so much I don’t even know what you just said.
00;16;42;06 – 00;17;04;19
Unknown
I don’t even know what you just said because it was so frickin flowery and ridiculous and metaphorical from bro getting clarity. Can you clarify for me? Use your Lasik in a clear sense. That’s it. We’re getting rid of the cloudiness, okay? We’re not going to mince up everything. We’re going to take the chunks. We’re going to look at it with crystal clear vision because we just got the Lasik, okay.
00;17;04;20 – 00;17;20;25
Unknown
And we’re going to move forward with whatever that means. We don’t need to dissect all of it. No. Maybe that’s a hint to you. Yeah. That’s just what the health curriculum go. Yeah. And keep doing. You just do my duties, do my own, keep doing medication. Hey, guys, come on down to the end of the cul de sac.
00;17;20;26 – 00;17;56;16
Unknown
Karen’s running a health education session down here. That’s right, that’s right. And when we’re in the shower, wash your pits, wash the feet. Don’t just let the soap go down from your hair and think that’s clean in your body. Okay, I know we’re no longer in there supervising, but let’s be real clear. All right? Last week, we talked about a murderous show where this woman was giving a tremendous amount of empathy and love and compassion to her husband, who had killed their daughter and lied and lied about it for over 30 years.
00;17;56;18 – 00;18;33;17
Unknown
And I ended that show by asking, is that empathy? The original question was, is can empathy ever be stupidity? And what that ended up turning into is, is empathy ever a trauma response, or can empathy be a trauma response? And I think this topic is fascinating, very hard for me to talk about because it it really it’s very alive and well for me as empathy could potentially be a trauma response instead of just empathy, and one that’s alive and well for me too.
00;18;33;19 – 00;18;54;20
Unknown
Is that so? I’m not an opposite here. I’m not sure about Scott, but okay, I very much feel the same way that you do when it comes to that. Okay. Which is which is probably why I avoided at all costs. But interesting that you’re avoiding it and I’m embracing it. And both could be trauma responses. Right.
00;18;54;23 – 00;19;39;15
Unknown
So let’s talk for a minute about why empathy could be a trauma response okay. And I don’t know a ton about this topic. But I can tell you from what I’ve seen one of the things that’s been most compelling for me is the thought that empathy serves as people pleasing. And empathy serves as chameleon like behavior. And I have seen that when you are the child in your family who either fears abandonment or fears that you will not be liked or loved, that there’s some degree of conditional associated with that real or imagined.
00;19;39;17 – 00;20;16;15
Unknown
That empathy serves as the bond to constantly keep you in the favored position. So if you’re my mom and I fear that if I do the wrong thing you’re going to remove love from me or you’re going to be very disapproving of something that I’ve done or because you’re an empath and you feel everything, you just feel the energy shift and you just know there may be no words, there may be no things taken away from you.
00;20;16;16 – 00;20;46;29
Unknown
You just know because the air has shifted in the room. Because you’re so hypersensitive to that happening. Yes. And so you don’t want that to happen. Therefore you become a people pleaser just because the act of feeling that is so unbearable and intense. So the the people pleasing comes about with I’m going to quickly recognize what is and is not favorable for you.
00;20;47;01 – 00;21;23;06
Unknown
I’m going to change my behavior to be in line with that, which will make you, think of me in a positive way. It was going to reduce the possibility that I may not be in your good stead in some way, shape or form. I just realized I’m 100% teaching my children to do this. Wow. Actively teaching to be empathic now.
00;21;23;08 – 00;21;52;19
Unknown
Well, you’re calling it a people. People pleasing, pleasing. I don’t I wouldn’t do define it as that, but I am 100%. When something happens, I pull them in aside and I say, do you see what just happened there? They’re like, yeah, I don’t like it. I said, here’s how you fix it and continue to engage immediately because of fear of what for them, fear of confrontation, that they might have to have a conversation with somebody and then they aren’t.
00;21;52;19 – 00;22;21;21
Unknown
They don’t understand why that conversation is happening. I, any any of that being excluded, that or well, anything that’s not keep the peace. It’s keep the peace and move forward. Here’s, here’s how we’re doing it. Now, does that mean change your internal thoughts or change how you really feel or anything like that? Absolutely not. It just means do what you need to do in the moment and then get out of there.
00;22;21;24 – 00;22;50;23
Unknown
That’s empathy. Is it? Or is it different? I don’t know. Or is it using empathy as a vehicle to. Like empathy in the form of I’m able to read that this situation didn’t go really well. So I’m I’m really over empathizing with the situation and not because I genuinely care about the situation, but because I need to keep myself safe.
00;22;50;26 – 00;23;12;25
Unknown
So like, empathy is the vehicle. In that case, I think so. And teaching them to very quickly analyze, is this worth the battle? And you can determine that based on that other person, how they respond, how they talk, how they engage, and you should know immediately if this is worth it. And if it’s not, here’s what you do.
00;23;12;28 – 00;23;35;18
Unknown
How does so you respond to that very easily because she’s she’s she’s actually more clear than Taylor. Hypersensitive. Yeah. To people’s thoughts, feelings and emotions. Yes. But she’s also doesn’t come across to me as a people pleaser. But neither does Taylor. That’s why I have to teach them because I’m like because they’re always confused. They’re like I don’t understand.
00;23;35;19 – 00;23;57;29
Unknown
And I’m like okay well here let me let me share, share that with you. And then they might get it immediately. And then I watch them do it. So do they always pick up on the sensitivity of what’s happening. Yes. But their response if if they didn’t have the lens of empathic trauma associated with that, their response would be what, just to leave it be like, that was really weird.
00;23;57;29 – 00;24;17;06
Unknown
What just happened over there and walk away? I don’t know, because I, I don’t think I’ve ever let it really get to that point. Fair. I really don’t I really don’t know. Now with me. Absolutely. They tell me how they feel because I don’t make them feel bad about it. I don’t make them feel bad about it.
00;24;17;06 – 00;24;42;02
Unknown
They we have conversations, all those kinds of things. But when they’re up against somebody else, who would do that, they’re confused. And so I say to them, well, here’s here’s how you fix that. And then I give, you know, when they’re up against someone who would what, call them out on it or, or say something that doesn’t make sense to them, I don’t know, I can’t.
00;24;42;02 – 00;25;10;01
Unknown
And then it’s hard to give an example. Are you fearful that they would be in that situation, or that they would say something rude back, or that they wouldn’t know how to respond? What part are we protecting? I think me because if something were to happen to them, they would come to me for clarification, and then that person would then have to have a conversation with me, and I would have to have boundaries and a line, and I’m not willing to do that.
00;25;10;08 – 00;25;37;10
Unknown
It’s like secondary empathy trauma going on. I’m grooming my children to not have to get into arguments or disagreements with other people, because that means I have to step up to the plate, potentially. And I don’t even want the possibility of that happening because that’s going to be so uncomfortable, or I’m going to have to set a boundary, or I’m going to have to give in and not want to, and I’d rather just not deal with it at all.
00;25;37;13 – 00;26;02;21
Unknown
Wow, that’s frickin crazy and profound. I know, and I’m not proud of it. It’s something that I’m I don’t like about myself. It’s something that I’m. I’m not. It’s my it’s my where I feel most comfortable. Even though it’s sad, it’s very sad. And so that’s part of the reason I keep the circle small, because it’s just it’s just easier.
00;26;02;23 – 00;26;20;29
Unknown
It’s just easier. But it’s like, can you go over and fix that, please, so that mom doesn’t have to fix it later on. Right. Is that that’s the feeling can. Oh. Did you just notice what happened there. Can you, can you go over and give her the soccer ball I know that no, don’t give her that soccer ball.
00;26;20;29 – 00;26;40;11
Unknown
Not like that, not like that. I wish I could give a good explanation, I just can’t. It’s not like that. It’s not like a sharing thing. It’s not like a give up. All of your whatever. It’s a I’m not going head to head with someone that it’s not worth it. It’s just not worth it. That’s that’s the line.
00;26;40;13 – 00;26;48;14
Unknown
Do you think it’d be different if you felt incredibly confident going head to head?
00;26;48;16 – 00;27;15;01
Unknown
If that was one of your superpowers was I’m incredibly decisive about what is right and what is wrong. I’m very clear that I’m not going to address the situation with you unless I’m very clear what’s going on. Bring on that conversation all day, every day. Do you think that that would change? Maybe. Maybe. I’ve never really dove into that component, but maybe because that’s one of the differences between us, right.
00;27;15;03 – 00;27;46;01
Unknown
I will handle any difficult conversation any day. Bring that right on over to me. I’m happy to have that conversation. I’m also happy to own, if my child is the reason why this conversation is happening, happening and it’s uncomfortable right. So it’s not always like my kids. Always. Right. But I feel very confident in having those difficult conversations, which then makes me less likely to have to manage Carter’s behavior, because it doesn’t matter what you throw at me.
00;27;46;01 – 00;28;08;08
Unknown
You know what, I got it. Where it does come up with me and tell me if you feel like this is the same is if Carter does something that doesn’t feel socially appropriate. An example would be someone coming over to our house and saying, Carter, how are you liking school? He’s like, it’s good. And then it gets quiet for a minute.
00;28;08;08 – 00;28;33;27
Unknown
What’s wrong with that? And then they’re like, well, what do you really love about it? It’s like, I don’t know. Oh, well, it was really good to see you. Carter. Had a great time. A great time. With you today, he’s like, yeah. It’s at that moment that I feel this strong desire to step in because I’m like, oh, boy, that feels again, if it’s a reflection of me, right?
00;28;33;27 – 00;28;55;11
Unknown
Like I’ve not maybe appropriately taught him pushback. That’s or like, I’m not thinking that. What is wrong with his social connection skills? You know, like just so shy. That’s all I would think. Yeah. Well, and then maybe that’s my own stuff. Yeah. I wouldn’t think anything about that conversation. Like I read whatever in your kid. Kids don’t want to to chat unless you’re my kids who just don’t shut up.
00;28;55;11 – 00;29;14;27
Unknown
But they’re very. Your kids wouldn’t have that type of conversation with me. They wouldn’t chit chat with, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know what they want. They wouldn’t be like school sign right there. Because it was so good to see you. I love you so much. Yeah. Never. Never. Right. So. But it wouldn’t even bother me if they did.
00;29;14;29 – 00;29;32;21
Unknown
I want to be like, excuse me. You it. I don’t think so. I don’t know, I, I don’t have experience so I don’t know keep going I don’t know, I can remember times being at your house and I’m saying something to Sawyer and so you’re not paying attention to me. She’s doing whatever hoop all she does on the TV or whatever.
00;29;32;21 – 00;29;50;26
Unknown
And you’re like, Sawyer, no, she has technology at her. I know I do. I put that and she’s like, yeah, she did. And you’re like, oh, you talk to her. If she ask you a question, I try to talk to her. Maybe, maybe will double down and you will go in there and you’ll be like, get here and ask more questions.
00;29;51;01 – 00;30;08;16
Unknown
Ask more questions. How about you ask some more questions? Because you want to make sure that you’ve gotten the point across real effing clear that that TV is not more important than the conversation that she’s supposed to be having with me. And then you’ll end it by saying, do you feel satisfied with that conversation that you’re in? Because if you don’t, why don’t you ask some more questions?
00;30;08;20 – 00;30;31;19
Unknown
But is that because it’s you? I don’t know, I don’t know. Well, that’s a great question. Is it? Oh, I can also see myself walking right in there and turning the TV up. I know, but is that just me? I don’t know what else to say about other people that might show up with the guys. Customer what if it was Scott oh, what a Scott key.
00;30;31;22 – 00;30;50;00
Unknown
Here’s what I will say when I when when they like get a ride home. Yeah. From dance class or whatever. The minute they get out of the car I’m like, did you have a conversation? Did you say things because I’m actually annoyed. You know what? Now that I think about it, yeah, I’m annoyed when I’m trying to engage with kids and they’re like, me, right?
00;30;50;00 – 00;31;13;16
Unknown
I’m like, did your parents not teach you manners? Right. There you go. Full circle. Exactly. Yeah, right. I mean, that’s not very often I volunteer to take kids places and so that the protection for me, the protection for you seems like it’s coming out from, like, I don’t want to have to engage with this parent if my kid is doing something that’s not, you know, of recognizing what’s happening in the room.
00;31;13;19 – 00;31;31;16
Unknown
And for me, it’s like, I know that that’s an area where my kid is really trying very hard and is going to social skills groups and whatever. But in some ways it does feel like a reflection on me when he is not engaging in that social way that that people will be like, what the hell, you know, have conversations with them.
00;31;31;16 – 00;31;51;06
Unknown
You know, I, I picked up, my daughter from school and she’s like, of course, at the last minute, can you bring Logan and his sister home to, And I’m going to say no is her boyfriend and her boyfriend sister. And they get in the car, I’m like, hey, how’s it going? Silence. I’m like, good chat.
00;31;51;08 – 00;32;10;06
Unknown
But I don’t think, what’s wrong with their parents? Why? Their parents obviously screwed them up in some way. Oh, yeah, I don’t think that either. I just think that they’re just they’re shy and they don’t want to talk, you know? And I’m not the kind of person that’s going to continue to make them feel uncomfortable by drilling at them and go, what?
00;32;10;07 – 00;32;24;22
Unknown
What’s the matter? Cat got to talk. Don’t you talk to me. What happened in school today? Nothing. You know, I’d be like, just shut up. They don’t want to talk. I’m forcing the talk because I hated that when I was a kid. And people asking me questions and I don’t really want to talk because I’m not comfortable.
00;32;24;24 – 00;32;47;06
Unknown
But then talk about empathy as a people pleaser. I was the kid who would get in the car and would have all of the full blown adult conversation. You also very uncomfortable with silence? Yes. Yeah. I’m the same way. I’m. We talked about that at this group. I am so uncomfortable chit chatting because if there is an awkward silence, I don’t know what to do with it.
00;32;47;06 – 00;33;03;27
Unknown
So then I start asking questions. So I would rather just not go at all. And so what I found myself with this group even though I’m running the event, I’m not part of the event. So I would always be behind my computer with my earphones on, pretending I’m on calls and stuff working because I don’t want to chit chat.
00;33;03;28 – 00;33;21;23
Unknown
Yeah, not that I can’t. Yeah I just I don’t like it. Where Taylor would be right in there. Taylor would be right in the middle. Hey guys. Oh look at she is she’s she’s Philip. My husband is the social director of the world. He knows every single person in the neighborhood. I don’t even know my neighbors names.
00;33;21;29 – 00;33;39;07
Unknown
Yeah. It’s just that’s how I run a joke. Is that whenever, Rebecca’s family comes over every year to put up my Christmas tree, and we need fill up because that tall one on the ladder, tall. And he has only one who can reach the top of the tree on the ladder. And we’re always looking around. And he’s in chat with John and Allen always.
00;33;39;11 – 00;33;55;19
Unknown
And he’s been in there for our not only that, but if he’s out smoking on the driveway, he’s talking to whoever else is outside her. Yeah, I’m like, yeah, we’re here for a reason. Show who’s running for judge? Yeah. Oh yeah. That’s just that’s how he is. So he he actually maintains all that. We’re going to a wedding.
00;33;55;19 – 00;34;11;12
Unknown
I’m like, dreading going to a wedding coming up because I’m going to have to socialize. Now, granted, I know some people, but he this is his work friends. Guess where I’m going to be? At the table by myself. Yeah. Scroll on your phone. Yeah. Because he doesn’t think, oh, he’s not savvy enough to bring me around and engage me with their conversations.
00;34;11;12 – 00;34;32;12
Unknown
He’s just so excited to hang with his people. But is that an empathy rest my trauma response from me? No. From him. Oh, I don’t know. Right. So again you have this like I don’t know like what what is the true emotion versus what is just a response to some way that we’ve been conditioned to, to do those types of things?
00;34;32;13 – 00;34;54;16
Unknown
It’s a great question, right I don’t know. So now that I have gotten a little bit more in touch with my neurodivergent, it’s been fascinating to me to be clear about what I really want to do and what I really want to say, versus what I previously have and would be saying. They are drastically different, right? Every time I see things tick tock or I’m not took to Instagram that I’m like, oh my God, Aaron, is this you?
00;34;54;16 – 00;35;10;07
Unknown
And then I’ll send it to you. And and it was all triggered from someone saying to you, do you even know who you are? And then you had said to me a couple of years ago, you’re like, I don’t know what I like to wear. You know, like those kinds of conversations. And I thought that was really interesting.
00;35;10;07 – 00;35;30;17
Unknown
I’m like, what are you talking about? You’ve always been decisive. But then when you really analyze it, it’s like, am I? I’m incredibly. It also came up because it was like, cut, how can you be so adamantly close with so many individual people? Like, I’m super close with me and I’m so hyper close with you, right? I’m super close with Renee, super close with Kelly.
00;35;30;19 – 00;35;51;18
Unknown
But they’re all independent relationships. Yeah. And it would never be the case that I was like, you know, what’s a good idea? Let’s get everyone together. That actually sounds horrendous to me, right? Because that’s just because then you’d have to manage all the individual relationships and then people would be confused. And then. But I do have very genuine, close, very intense relationships.
00;35;51;18 – 00;36;21;20
Unknown
Absolutely. With these individual people. Yeah. But then that can sometimes come off as how you and I get this a lot. How can you be so close with Rebecca and also so close with this other person who were under incredibly different crazy, ridiculous, different people? Yeah. And then it was through that conversation that it was like, Am I just masterful at figuring out who that person is?
00;36;21;20 – 00;36;46;17
Unknown
And then how do we have the best possible relationship based on those factors? Is that me flexing who I really am and being different based on those people? And or is that am I am? Is that who I am? Am I just that person? And you’re right, that’s where it started. And then now all these like, Instagram posts keep coming up and they’re so validating.
00;36;46;17 – 00;37;29;15
Unknown
Oh my gosh, that is so true. Yeah, yeah. But it’s really made me start to question this empathy as a trauma response. And then I’m like, well, what was the trauma? What what were the past situations. And the only thing that can come up for me, and this is again in my, conscious mind because who knows what’s happened in I don’t mind, but in my conscious mind, I know my parents were incredibly loving and supportive and would be there no matter what, but I do know that something about their parenting style was conditional for me, and I learned a lot of that through having a brother that was seven years older.
00;37;29;17 – 00;37;58;16
Unknown
So they never shunned him. They never pushed him to the side. They were never like, oh my God, we don’t love you anymore. But I was receiving secondary messages quite consistently about appropriate and inappropriate behavior, something as simple as, is it okay for my brother to be out until 1030 at night when his curfew was 10:00? And I’m watching for that, and I’m hyper vigilant, to your point.
00;37;58;16 – 00;38;19;29
Unknown
Like very, very clear cut about how is this going to go down. And then I might hear a conversation that was because you couldn’t be home at ten instead of 1030. You will be going to bed 30 minutes earlier or there is some quid pro quo that would happen. Everything. Who has consequence reaction, consequence action, reaction action. Right.
00;38;20;03 – 00;38;49;06
Unknown
There was no variable or room for flexibility, which I interpreted as conditional. You don’t come home at 1030. You are wrong. If you are wrong, then there will be a consequence to that action. It was an extreme rigidity if you will. And so when I think about those secondary messages I was receiving and then thinking well how did I turn out to be a very loving, caring, kind, empathic, flexible.
00;38;49;08 – 00;39;11;04
Unknown
Sometimes in the beginning of having a child a little too flexible. And that was very much a response for me of not wanting to have that rigidity of conditional love. That makes a lot of sense, right? That the only thing consciously that I can point that to. I think what’s also hard is when we use the word trauma.
00;39;11;07 – 00;39;37;07
Unknown
Because trauma in my mind is associated with assault, usually bad things that happen. Yeah. And so then when you look at the things that shape you. Yeah, that are also classified as quote, trauma, we need another word and I’m sure there is one. But because I don’t like saying that just like you, you’d never want your parents to hear you’re growing up, planted these traumas, right?
00;39;37;07 – 00;40;05;12
Unknown
Because it’s not true. Right? What is true is they plant these seeds that informed how you were going to be as a human, and they worked incredibly well in certain situations. Sure. It just had an adverse side effect that made me a incredibly empathic not in a good way, but like an overboard, empathic. What we were talking about last week was the the woman who’s whose husband killed all these people.
00;40;05;12 – 00;40;39;01
Unknown
And I’m like, I get it. I totally get why we still care about this man, right? And I’m like, logically, that doesn’t make sense to me. Logically, that feels so incredibly wrong. And yet empathy is one of those things that everyone sees the beauty in. And no one takes a step to say, is there a point where empathy becomes a response to a past trigger event, or trigger scenarios that have happened that is actually not helpful absolutely anymore?
00;40;39;03 – 00;41;07;11
Unknown
And where are we talking about that and in what space? And then how do we carve out space to talk about that without, to your point, making trauma on one side and empathy on on the other? I that’s always been an issue I have with common place use of clinical terms. Yeah. There’s a whole that’s across it called the mental health Literacy project.
00;41;07;14 – 00;41;38;21
Unknown
That is focused on this because when you use the term trauma in a clinical setting, there are very specific DSM diagnosable conditions that make it trauma. When we use the term PTSD, it is only because the trauma trigger has had such a lasting effect for over six months. That is termed into that level of experience. But we throw the term PTSD around like it’s anyone’s experience.
00;41;38;21 – 00;42;07;20
Unknown
Who has struggled with something in their past. That’s right, that’s right. We use the term bipolar or schizophrenia to talk about the weather, right? Well, it’s the same concept as using the word gay, right? That’s gay. That’s when it’s Harden. Right. He says that anymore. Except you two. Right? Right. Right. It’s it’s the use of these terms without psycho really thinking about the
00;42;07;23 – 00;42;33;29
Unknown
Yeah. Psycho crazy. You know, it’s, it’s if we don’t have other terms to describe events that happened in our life that were impactful, not necessarily in a positive way, but, you know, like a life of that, a life situation or whatever that doesn’t reach the point of a certifiable term trauma. If we don’t have a word for that, then everything becomes trauma.
00;42;34;03 – 00;42;57;05
Unknown
And I think people utilize those certain words as emphasis, you know, like to make their point clearer or to really, really, like hit it home you to see. Yeah. How bad the situation. It may not be diagnosed PTSD but this is a true trigger right? Right. And I need to over exemplify it so that you know, you get it.
00;42;57;05 – 00;43;43;13
Unknown
Don’t touch this part. Correct. But then but then for someone like me where language matters so much I know. Right. It’s really hard. That becomes a challenge. Yeah. And I I’ve seen a couple people on our Facebook group, which is really just you and me at this point since, so a couple of you blaming us, talking about empathy as a trauma response, and I, I wonder how that changes empathy if we do recognize places where empathy is being done out of a trauma or a past life experience that has not been favorable versus what what what does that turn empathy into?
00;43;43;14 – 00;44;08;03
Unknown
If we just talk about pure empathy? Because I do believe I also have pure empathy in addition to having empathy as a response. And what’s the difference? And how do you know? And then how do you distinguish or acknowledge when you’re sort of crossing over into some of those places that’s important?
00;44;08;05 – 00;44;34;19
Unknown
Yes. And I don’t have an answer. Right. That would require me to go into my inner feelings and think about it. And I’m going to say no. So let me tell you this. There’s hope for us. Okay, good. Because as a new ten, ten year eligible, I guess I’m not tenure eligible yet. Tenure track professor. Oh, okay. At Brockport, I have a research agenda.
00;44;34;21 – 00;45;09;12
Unknown
Okay. And I have the next five years to produce four articles around my research agenda. Okay. What are we what are we looking at? I woke up at, like, 230 in the morning. Okay? And like dark Angel, Michelangelo’s standing at the end of my bed. Oh. That’s creepy. Okay. It came to me that the empathy with boundaries. What we’ve developed our business that we’ve not yet launched yet, and what we are talking about here and empathy with boundaries is that is my research agenda.
00;45;09;12 – 00;45;34;26
Unknown
Great. That is what I want to be like. Brené Brown with vulnerability. Yeah, empathy with boundaries is what Doctor Erin Halligan Avery is going to be known for. I love the research field. I love that now. A lot of what I do here in this work is related to nonprofits. But I came up with this entire list of, like, empathy and leadership in nonprofits, empathy and volunteerism in nonprofits.
00;45;34;26 – 00;45;55;15
Unknown
How about just empathy in the type of people that work in these fields, right. Empathy and codependency, empathy and boundaries. You know, so I really want to get to the empathy and boundaries in nonprofits when you’re dealing with people, what what are the what are the characteristics of people who tend to go into nonprofit work? And then what are their past histories?
00;45;55;15 – 00;46;20;11
Unknown
And can we draw any connections between their past history has past histories and empathy as a trauma response, like those kind of things, I think is really where I want to focus. A lot of my efforts I was getting incredibly overwhelmed about what types of things I could do my research agenda on, and I’m like, at the end of the day, I am both empathy and boundaries.
00;46;20;13 – 00;46;54;27
Unknown
And yet, even as someone in this space still has not figured out how to successfully navigate that across multiple different, you know, avenues. And I know someone like me needs more information in order to better understand that. And what’s going to be the most exciting for me is when you conduct your actual studies, because you’ll approach it from such a quantitative, qualitative point of view that it will just be freaking magic.
00;46;54;27 – 00;47;10;04
Unknown
It’ll be really cool. It’s going to be fascinating. I agree, we’re going to be leveling up this podcast, or I’m going to come in and I’m like, you’re never going to believe, right? I just found out early preliminary results hot off the press right, right, right. Let’s discuss these. What what could this mean? What what is our hypothesis?
00;47;10;04 – 00;47;28;12
Unknown
Correct. Because we have a lot of these conversations. Maybe our listeners will give us some hypotheses. I mean, that’d be great. When that be awesome, that’d be great. So we call that a level up. Exciting. Well, new journeys, new journeys. Here I am finishing us off with a that sounded wrong. I know I was the going to say that sounded wrong.
00;47;28;12 – 00;47;54;10
Unknown
What? We way back to our, puberty conversation that we had in the beginning of the show that I came up with our intention part. I’m excited for my happy ending. I know that life is only limited by my imagination. I am dreaming bigger. Love it with letters I. You’re an idiot, sweet idiot, I loved that. Me too.
00;47;54;10 – 00;48;28;02
Unknown
Isn’t empathy amazing? Well we’re amazing. I don’t know about all that sympathy stuff. That’s fine. I accept you wherever you are. Oh, God, I love you. I love you too. And if you love us, please like and subscribe to More Love the Power of Empathy podcast wherever you get your podcasts. See you next time.
