Speaker A [00:00:00]: Why am I doing it to begin with?
Speaker B [00:00:02]: So maybe that’s the core. What is it about your inner child that feels the need to be the savior? Feels the need to be a certain way or the world won’t be okay.
Speaker A [00:00:23]: Hey, it’s me, Erin. Thanks for joining us on the More Love podcast. Do not tell Rebecca, but this podcast is about empathy. She likes people to think she’s dead inside, but the truth is she’s a big time feeler who has truly helped me uncover that empathy is my superpower. Here she comes.
Speaker B [00:00:42]: Hey, bestie.
Speaker A [00:00:43]: Hi, love.
Speaker B [00:00:44]: What are you doing?
Speaker A [00:00:45]: Oh, just getting ready to host a podcast.
Speaker B [00:00:48]: A podcast about what?
Speaker A [00:00:50]: Life. Our life as best friends. Who? More like sisters.
Speaker B [00:00:54]: Ah.
Speaker A [00:00:55]: Yay.
Speaker B [00:00:55]: I love us. And I can’t wait to share our.
Speaker A [00:00:57]: Stories with the world, especially the ones that involve us pushing each other right. To be our most authentic selves.
Speaker B [00:01:04]: Oh, man. Okay.
Speaker A [00:01:09]: I want to tell you this story of this stupid ass kids book that Carter was listening to on YouTube while I was in line at Dunkin Donuts two days ago.
Speaker B [00:01:18]: Okay.
Speaker A [00:01:20]: The book went something like this. A duck walked up to a lemonade stand and said, do you have any grapes? And the man said, no, I do not. I just sell lemonade. But would you like some lemonade? And the duck just walked away.
Speaker B [00:01:33]: Oh.
Speaker A [00:01:34]: The next day, the duck walked up to the lemonade stand and said, do you have any grapes? And the man said, no, I do not. I just have lemonade. Like I said yesterday, do you want any lemonade? And the duck just walked away. The next day, the duck came up to the lemonade stand and said, do you have any grapes? And the man said, if you ask me one more time if I have grapes, I’m going to glue you to that tree and leave you there. I only have lemonade. That’s all I sell. The duck went away. The duck came back the fourth day and said, do you have any glue? And the man looked at him and he said, because I’m wondering if you have any grapes. And the man said, you know what? He said, I’m all done with you asking me this question, so let’s get in the car and go to the store and I will buy you some grapes. Don’t come back here. So they get in the car and the man and the duck go in, goes and gets the grapes, goes through the line, and the. And the duck turns to the man and the man hands the grapes to the duck and said, here you go, duck. Here’s your grapes. And the duck said, I don’t want grapes? Do you have any lemonade? That sigh right there. I look at Carter and he’s. He’s laughing. He thinks it’s hilarious. And I said, what the f is wrong with that duck?
Speaker C [00:03:06]: Is that duck on a reality show about villains and stuff?
Speaker B [00:03:10]: What? I think the duck is not.
Speaker A [00:03:11]: Something is wrong with that duck and car. Just laugh, laugh, laugh. He thinks that’s so funny. I’m like, everything about that is not okay.
Speaker C [00:03:22]: What’s the point of that? Like, what’s the moral? What’s. What’s. What is that?
Speaker A [00:03:26]: It’s a great question. There’s a whole podcast episode in and.
Speaker C [00:03:29]: Of itself, but it won’t be this one.
Speaker B [00:03:31]: Well, maybe I know what we do. I know exactly what we do. What? We’re going to contact that author. Yeah. Have them on the goddamn podcast and be like, I need to discuss with you what this is.
Speaker A [00:03:40]: That’s right. Why did you do this?
Speaker B [00:03:42]: Right.
Speaker A [00:03:42]: Why did you do this? I’ve never heard any of it before. Why the heck are we doing that? But of course, because I can’t just let it go. I think to myself, how many people is that in people’s lives?
Speaker B [00:03:54]: Oh, yes.
Speaker A [00:03:56]: That is such a metaphor for. You give. You set a boundary, or you say, no, I don’t have that. No, I don’t have that. No, I don’t have that. No, sorry, I don’t have that. And then all of a sudden, you give to someone and they’re like, oh, I didn’t want that anyway. And then it’s like a question of, like, were you just trying to get me to cave? Were you just trying to see how far you could push? Like, what is it? And then how do you have the audacity at the end of the day to tell me after I’ve already bought you the grapes that you don’t want the grapes, you want the lemonade. So I, probably, due to just where I’m at in my life right now, found myself wanting to flow. Oh, yeah. I was livid. I was like, f that duck. Are you kidding me? And then the duck just walks away.
Speaker B [00:04:46]: Right.
Speaker A [00:04:47]: Unfazed.
Speaker B [00:04:48]: Yep. Yep. Intentional.
Speaker A [00:04:51]: So I have a couple other examples of this phenomenon that has been happening. So one of them was someone who friended me on LinkedIn. And he was like, I have this information that I think you might really care about, and it’s related to schools and how to identify active shooters and threat assessment and these types of things. And I said, this is really great information. I appreciate this. I do sit on the National Behavioral Intervention and Threat Assessment Association Board. Are you familiar with that organization or would you like me to connect you with the president? He says, I am familiar with. Familiar with that organization, but I would really love an introduction. I said, be happy to do that. So I send an email between the president of NEBITA and this man and myself and say, just wanted to make a virtual introduction. This person seems to have some really interesting things that might, you know, be a great conference topic or.
Speaker B [00:05:54]: Right.
Speaker A [00:05:54]: I don’t know anything about this man other than what I read through. Looks pretty interesting. I send that message joining the two of them, and not three minutes later do I not get a phone call that identifies this man’s name on my phone. And I get my phone number. How the hell did this man get my phone number? So he leaves a message that says, thanks so much for making that introduction. I really appreciate it, but I really still have some questions for you and would love to talk with you. I realize he got my phone number because my phone number is in my email signature. Right. So he leaves that message and I.
Speaker B [00:06:30]: Think, first action, remove that.
Speaker A [00:06:31]: Oh, yeah. Oh, God. Especially because it’s my personal phone number. Gone.
Speaker B [00:06:36]: Gone.
Speaker A [00:06:36]: That’s. We’re all done there.
Speaker B [00:06:37]: Yeah.
Speaker A [00:06:38]: So I delete the message, which is a big deal for me. Usually I would feel that I needed to call someone back or whatever. Next thing you know, I get another email that is joint email that is like, oh, I’d love to meet with you. This is great. I’d love to talk to you about this. Whatever. Now, the president in a bit is super busy. There’s a conference coming up, so she’s not responded yet. The very next day, there’s another email. Here’s a link to my calendar. Here’s how, if you can get connected, would really love to talk with you. Right. I’m like, oh, this is too incessant. Right? This is too many people. Do you have any grapes? Do you have any grapes?
Speaker B [00:07:11]: Do you have any grapes?
Speaker A [00:07:12]: Do you have any grapes? Like, it’s too much of that, right? So then he calls my phone again and doesn’t leave a message this time. And I write to him on LinkedIn and I say, I’m not interested in speaking with you at this time. And if I choose to be interested in speaking with you in the future, I will be sure to reach out, but I would appreciate if you do not continue to contact me.
Speaker B [00:07:36]: Yeah.
Speaker A [00:07:37]: And he said, thank you very much, Aaron. I appreciate it. You know, I will. I will not. So I’m thinking To myself in this moment. I really hate that I had to flex that muscle to begin with to let you know that you can’t just spam me with tons of messages because you now have a bunch of extra information that now you’re gonna, you’re gonna flood my inbox and you’re gonna flood my phone and you’re gonna like, that is not okay. Why I have to set that boundary to begin with is annoying to me, but I was also proud of myself for setting the boundary.
Speaker B [00:08:08]: Yeah.
Speaker A [00:08:08]: Example number two, There’s a man on Facebook who’s very interested in our podcast and would like to help us optimize our SEO and our taglines and that kind of stuff, which I greatly appreciate and have engaged in some conversations back and forth with this individual. And finally I realized because some things have changed about the podcast where Joe and Scott are taking over more of the thumbnails, the clips that are going to get posted. I don’t review the episodes anymore. They come up with the taglines and they’re doing a lot of that from an SEO standpoint. So I respond and say that I have passed his information on to essentially Joe and if he, if Joe is interested in his services, he will be in touch. And I say, you know, what’s the best way to contact you? And he sends me all of his contact information. This is at 1:30 in the morning on Sunday because I, or, sorry, Saturday, I was having a hard time sleeping. And then when I struggle with sleeping, I go in and I just answer emails or whatever. He says, okay, thank you very much. So your guy’s going to be in touch with me and I very clearly say my guy will be in touch with you in the event he would like to use your services. I’ve given him all of the information that you’ve provided and I forgot at the time. Scott has access to all of the messages, so can see, you know, what services he’s able to offer. He’s a realistic rate and from what he’s saying, whether this is true or not does seem to have the ability to be able to re optimize and improve optimization of channels and has said things like, your content is different. I really like your content. I really think that, you know, you have great opportunities here. Great. I don’t want to have to deal with any of that. But Joe is doing a phenomenal job with that. So I say, I’ve passed the information on and if he would like to be in touch with you, then he’ll be in touch with you. That was at 1:30 in the morning, 7:30, 9 in the morning. I haven’t heard from your guy. So I write this message that essentially says, I’m aware because it was 1:30 in the morning my time when I sent that message. It’s also a Saturday or a Sunday and most people don’t work on the weekends. And as I said in the message, my guy will be in touch with you if he’d like to use your services. I do not want to continue to answer message after message after message from you about this. And I need you to trust that he will be in touch if he wants to be in trust. And if you in touch and if you do not hear from him, that you take that as a final answer that we are not interested. So he put a heart on the message. And then today I get another message and I’m livid when I go in there and it just says, got it.
Speaker B [00:11:17]: Unreal.
Speaker A [00:11:18]: Now do I know that he’s got it? I don’t. No, I don’t. My next step is we’re going to just delete him, right? And we’re all going to block him and we’re all done.
Speaker C [00:11:29]: He’s been contacting the page for a long time.
Speaker A [00:11:31]: Oh, yeah.
Speaker C [00:11:32]: Like he’s been back and forth for months and months.
Speaker A [00:11:34]: Maybe even, to be fair, I have kept him on that line because I do think that in my mind before Joe was coming in to do some of this stuff, it was going to be helpful to me. The. What I couldn’t get behind is giving him access to the back end of our channel to change things. I didn’t, I didn’t like that. I, I. Only people I feel comfortable doing that with are Scott and Joe. I don’t even want to give you access to the back end.
Speaker B [00:11:57]: I don’t want it.
Speaker A [00:11:58]: Not, not, not that you care because you wouldn’t do anything in there.
Speaker B [00:12:01]: But I will never go in there. Even if you’re like, would you please go do this? No, I won’t.
Speaker A [00:12:08]: Yeah, I’ll get to it. Yeah, I’ll take care of it. Yeah, it’s on my list.
Speaker B [00:12:11]: It’s on my list. It keeps getting down further and further.
Speaker A [00:12:14]: So those were a couple examples. I had a third one that’s completely escaped me right now of just examples where people are like, do you have any grapes? Do you have any grapes? Do you have any grapes? Do you have any grapes?
Speaker C [00:12:25]: This is the way things are now. I get emails all the time. The same thing, your SEO, your SEO this and that. And they send an email, then they send another email, then they send another email, then they say, I mean, it keeps going. Usually back in the day, if I could recall, you send an email. If someone doesn’t reply, maybe you send another one. And if they don’t reply to that one, then you give up. But these people just keep hammering on. And I think a lot of times it’s not even a person, it’s just a bot.
Speaker B [00:12:51]: It’s a bot.
Speaker C [00:12:51]: It’s a bot that’s doing it.
Speaker B [00:12:53]: And it’s a templated thing that is scheduled.
Speaker C [00:12:56]: Yeah, that’s scheduled. And says, oh, keep going. So I don’t know which ones are which, but.
Speaker A [00:13:01]: And what impact does that have? So think about that. Right? When we think about empathy and we think about empathy is typically the response that we give to genuine interactions of wanting to make sure that the person on the other end of a communication is still whole at the end of that conversation. And when you are someone who wants to try and find a balance between making sure that person still feels whole, even the guy who’s calling my phone multiple times and emailing me multiple times, I want him to still feel whole at the end, even though I have been impacted, you know? And then if he continued to contact me after that point, I would be like, now I no longer care that you are whole. Now I will lash you verbally or I will block you, or I will say, right, because I’ve given you more than enough. But what does it do to empathy when you now have engagements that are incessant? They are approaching you in your private spaces, they are not caring about your own boundaries and what you have said or wanted in this interaction. In some cases, they’re not even human. They’re bots. Right. And so you have these bots that you don’t need to interact with empathically. But sometimes it’s hard to determine what is a bot versus what is a real person. Do you think any of this is related to empathy fatigue or to the fact that people now are much more short, they feel more guarded, they’re more protective, they feel like they can’t trust situations as much. And, like, how is that impacting people’s ability to be empathic?
Speaker B [00:14:45]: Well, I think. I think it’s just the world we live in today. And, I mean, you’re speaking about a very specific kind of role, right? These people are sales. That’s what you’re supposed to do in sales. And I don’t think sales people give a shit about empathy.
Speaker C [00:15:01]: Yeah, I don’t think anybody what I was going to say. I’m like, sales and empathy do not.
Speaker B [00:15:05]: They’re not coexist. No. And at the end of the day, they just need a sale and they will say whatever they need to say to you to get on your calendar and waste your time. Really.
Speaker A [00:15:14]: And that’s dangerous for a person who has a lot of empathy and assumes that all people come from a good place.
Speaker B [00:15:20]: Correct.
Speaker A [00:15:21]: Because I have been hoodwinked twice, I can think of by two people that I thought genuinely cared about the impact that they were going to have. And at the end of the day, when there wasn’t a quick enough return or it wasn’t going to work out for them or something better came along, they didn’t give a flying F at the end of the day. And then I’m, I’m sitting there like, wow, I am so confused that this is where we’re at right now.
Speaker B [00:15:50]: I learned a long time ago to. When it. When it comes to those kinds of situations, you’ve got to make those people jump through at least three different hoops. And if they successfully manage that, then they may earn your attention for a couple of minutes.
Speaker A [00:16:10]: What would be an example of a hoop?
Speaker B [00:16:11]: When that guy reached out to you through Facebook. Let’s just use the.
Speaker A [00:16:15]: Yeah, sos.
Speaker B [00:16:16]: What’s it called?
Speaker A [00:16:16]: Yeah, which one? The. As it is an SOS most of.
Speaker B [00:16:20]: The time Facebook SEO for. For more love. Okay, let’s use the sos yeah. Had he now granted you, you told a little bit of a backstory. Pretend that backstory doesn’t exist. Pretend he just reached out to you and it was this, this, you know, like, irritating. I would have said, great. Send me three specific examples of what you would consider doing and I’ll review them through email or through a video or through whatever. And then on my own time, I would review it. If I liked that, then I would go back with another follow up, make him do the work to convince me that he earns five minutes of my calendar. I learned that a long time ago. I’m, I’m even, even with co workers, you don’t, you don’t get to just have a meeting if you can’t send it in an email. And it has to be a meeting. I really need to know why. Because there’s just no time. There’s just no time. So it’s got to be. You’ve got. Everybody has to jump through certain hoops to get to a certain point. Because at the end of the day there. If you can’t jump through those hoops, then you’re not going to follow through.
Speaker A [00:17:26]: With anything in the relationship.
Speaker B [00:17:28]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A [00:17:30]: That’s really interesting.
Speaker B [00:17:31]: Which is why oftentimes with job interviews these days, they make you. It’s not just a cover letter and a resume. It’s. They make you do these video calls. Not video calls. It’s this, I don’t know what you call it. It’s like five different questions and they want to see your reaction in the moment. It’s as though you’re talking to somebody and the committee is going to review that. They’re going to judge what you look like. They’re going to. All these things are going to happen through that because they’re not going to waste their time meeting with 20 people when they can narrow it down very easily to the top two or three to do the in person. It’s, it’s just, it’s a time efficiency situation.
Speaker A [00:18:05]: I would say on a daily basis, like you, Scott, I probably get 35 to 45 emails that are selling you something wanting to engage with me in some way, shape or form. Yep. Nope. And what I’ve done essentially is just, I go in and I just mark them all as spam. And now that I’ve marked them all as spam, I’m getting a few less, you know, not a ton. They always find some way to work around that system. But why that’s frustrating to me is that now take me as an empathic person who really wants to reach out to case managers to say I have a tool that would really value, that would really benefit your students and also free up your time to do something else. My emails are being seen in exactly the same way as the other sleazy sales emails.
Speaker B [00:18:59]: Yep. I mean the best example, I’m, I’m right now interviewing, interviewing sales teams for a specific product I’m looking for. And I went on to the websites. I was the one with the initial reach out. You know, when you go sign up for a demo, you know. Yeah, I went and did that to maybe four or five, maybe even six different systems. I immediately was put into their queue of crap. So now my entire inbox is flooded with their crap that I don’t even want. I reached out to you specific. I had to speak. I also shut people down real fast with demos. I’m like, I’m, I. Right now my main priority, I’m going to decide if I want to even consider you based on the price. They don’t want to tell me the price. They want to Give me the demo. And right away I say, I’m really sorry. I have, I know I signed up for a 30 minute call. I only have five minutes and I need to know the price right now because the price will determine if I want a demo and what’s negotiating. What, where can we negotiate in the price if the price is firm and whatever, whatever. I will decide if I’m willing to entertain that. So then I narrowed that down real fast to the top two that I wanted demos from.
Speaker A [00:20:02]: Does it feel different to you if you’re emailing with someone or if you’re on the call for those 30 minutes and in the first five minutes you’re like, hey, I just wanted to let you know, what’s the price? Does it feel, does it feel different? Does your ability to be able to bust that down so quickly change when you are face to face with a person in a meeting?
Speaker B [00:20:22]: No. Like when I’m doing the zoom call versus the phone call.
Speaker A [00:20:25]: Yeah. No, I say a zoom call versus an email.
Speaker B [00:20:28]: No. Right away I’m like, I don’t need to know any other information. My main priority is the, is the price.
Speaker A [00:20:33]: And if the person is like, I understand, I understand, but we just need to do the demo use.
Speaker B [00:20:37]: I’ll say, no, I’m not. I’m. I’ll find somebody else, thank you. And delete them. I don’t, I do not have time. Because right there, that tells me you are going to tell me something I don’t like. You’re going to. Your price point is out of here. It’s just, it’s not, it’s not where I need it to be.
Speaker A [00:20:52]: So how do you not associate that with a lack of empathy on my part? Yeah.
Speaker B [00:20:59]: A lack of empathy. What, what am I. I’m empathetic on the fact that they have a job to do. What am I empathetic about?
Speaker A [00:21:06]: Well, it’s a human being and they want to talk.
Speaker B [00:21:09]: I’m not wasting their time.
Speaker A [00:21:09]: Either something that’s important to them or they want an opportunity to chat with you about, you know, or maybe their sales tactic is it’s best if I show you the ways in which this is different or. Right. I’m. It’s hard in a sales type example, but the shutting down of having continued conversation when you’re face to face with someone. One example would be that guy from that company. You know what I’m talking about? The company that we work with in Concern center that he got real weird real quick in that for me. Oh, yeah.
Speaker B [00:21:50]: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A [00:21:50]: Right. You know what I’m talking about. Right.
Speaker B [00:21:52]: That’s how I discovered my. My telephone number was in my signature.
Speaker A [00:21:57]: Okay.
Speaker B [00:21:57]: Because I got a phone call.
Speaker A [00:21:58]: That’s a great example of one that you weren’t like that at that point. That was only a couple of years ago, but you were still entertaining at that point.
Speaker B [00:22:07]: His he wasn’t selling to me weirdness. Correct. Because he wasn’t selling to me. I had. I had an action that I had to do for my job, and it was constantly being held up with problems on their side. So was I kind and whatever. Yes. Because I. My mission was to get my job done. Same response here. My mission is to get my job done. All I need to know right now is the price. The price is going to determine if I’m going to move forward.
Speaker A [00:22:34]: So when he called. Right. For something completely unrelated, which one threw you real the hell off? Because you were like, okay, this. I don’t understand how you got my phone number. Why we’re talking. Once I figured that out.
Speaker B [00:22:44]: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A [00:22:45]: In that moment, you’re in a place. It was real weird where you did not immediately say so and so.
Speaker B [00:22:52]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. Real confused.
Speaker A [00:22:56]: I’m confused about how you got my phone number and why we’re having this conversation right now. I don’t have time for this phone conversation. And.
Speaker B [00:23:02]: Yeah.
Speaker A [00:23:03]: And I’m wondering if that was more about.
Speaker B [00:23:05]: It was the buildup. It was the buildup because we had numerous zoom calls, and there was so much downtime when processing was happening that we had social conversations. Conversations. So I understood why it went further. I just thought it was weird.
Speaker A [00:23:19]: So that then points out to me something that we’ve talked about on this podcast before, which is it’s easier to set empathy boundaries when you do not have a relationship in any way, shape.
Speaker B [00:23:31]: Or form or connect on anything. That’s not business. That’s a terrible way to say it, but.
Speaker A [00:23:37]: Well, the emails that are coming in that are spamming my inbox, I don’t have any relationship. I can just push them to the side.
Speaker B [00:23:44]: But if I’m on. Here’s a sales tech tactic that would work for me if I’m on a zoom call. And immediately I. I’m all business. Right. I’m not. I’m trying not to engage. Whatever. But if they’re like, oh, my gosh, I realized when you emailed me that your headshot outfit was from blah, blah, blah, and I have that exact same outfit right there. We’re now connected. So now I’m going To give you more time. Just because. Not because you complimented me, but because you. You did something that was. Yes, yes.
Speaker A [00:24:12]: I’ll give you values.
Speaker B [00:24:13]: That’s right. I’ll give you a little bit more time.
Speaker A [00:24:15]: Yeah.
Speaker B [00:24:16]: Because of that.
Speaker A [00:24:17]: Right?
Speaker B [00:24:17]: Yeah. So that’s what happened with that guy.
Speaker A [00:24:19]: Yeah.
Speaker B [00:24:19]: Because we had downtime. We were connecting on, just. We were just chit chatting.
Speaker A [00:24:23]: Right. So. But also, one part of your personality that is one of those balloons that we talked about in the last episode is that you’ve been trained your entire life to not make people feel bad. And so you will also placate or, you know, maybe you’re listening to him, but you’re still doing work behind the scenes or whatever. And because it’s not necessarily empathy that you’re giving to this person, it’s fighting against your own demon of not wanting to be rude. Because you’ve been trained to believe that being rude or not giving people the time of day, even if you’re faking it, is not an okay personality trait to have.
Speaker B [00:25:12]: Well, that’s the other thing we talked about the other day. Boundaries equals rude. Right.
Speaker A [00:25:19]: So we’ve both identified that when it comes to setting those boundaries, that we have had fears and feelings with the fact that, wow, I really love the word boundaries. But then when it comes to actually putting boundaries up, that somehow in our deepest parts of self, we have been told or have determined that a boundary means I don’t see you, I don’t care about you, I don’t want anything to do with you. You might as well just be slapping the person across the face and being like, get out of here. No one wants to talk to you. You’re the bully on the playground. Right, Right.
Speaker B [00:25:53]: So when you operate from that lens, that can be challenging. Yeah.
Speaker A [00:26:00]: And so that’s the part that’s interesting for me. We started by talking about, is there empathy fatigue? And I’m finding that more and more people now are quicker to be snappier, to be less likely to engage, to not even put themselves out there to have the conversation, because it becomes a vulnerable place where you can easily be attacked by the mob of LinkedIn messages and phone calls, by the incessant messaging on Facebook. Something that has always gotten me. Whenever I’m in New York City and I always see a homeless person, I very often feel compelled to be like, hi, how are you? You know, or, you know, here’s $5. Or like, wanting to just let that person be seen. Right. But I find myself not engaging in that at all because I Am so afraid that even opening the door to have that conversation now leads me down the path of, well, could you just buy me some lunch? Well, that’s your experience too, right?
Speaker B [00:27:13]: Yeah.
Speaker A [00:27:13]: I’m very easily swindled into having to do all and be all for someone, which is why I struggle. You’ve probably seen these reels or whatever where it’s some famous violinist.
Speaker B [00:27:30]: Oh yeah. Who’s playing in the.
Speaker A [00:27:31]: Who’s playing.
Speaker B [00:27:32]: And people ignore him and they’re like.
Speaker A [00:27:34]: How many people walked past this person and didn’t realize, you know, whatever that this is who this was? And I find myself in those moments being like, we’re shaming people for not opening themselves up to an experience that they’ve had 99 out of 100 times by now, trying to get them to think that that one person you walk past may be famous, that one person you walk past may be the person that you’ve saved. That one person. Right. And so it’s now we’re using empathized or weaponized empathy to try and make people feel bad. I feel this way if I go into a part of the city that intuitively doesn’t feel safe to me and I lock my doors, I feel like an asshole.
Speaker B [00:28:25]: Because you might have offended the robber on the corner.
Speaker A [00:28:27]: I must be. I must be racist.
Speaker B [00:28:29]: Or you offended the perfectly nice person on the corner.
Speaker A [00:28:32]: Right?
Speaker B [00:28:32]: Yeah, I know.
Speaker A [00:28:33]: Must be, you know, whatever that feeling in is coming from. Subliminal. Whatever. This is why kids get taken by nasty ass humans in vans because they don’t want to be rude or say, no thank you, I don’t want to see your dog or no, I don’t want that. You know, that’s exactly the tactic that they use, is that they get you to feel bad that you’re not engaging in a conversation. Right. So all of that to say I just have this overall feeling or sense that empathy’s so frickin complicated.
Speaker B [00:29:13]: Oh yeah. Oh, and we live in such a small world now that we’re getting bombarded in every aspect possible.
Speaker A [00:29:21]: Yes.
Speaker B [00:29:21]: And so when you. To reference our last session, you have to pick and choose where your priorities and your values lie that make up your personality. And at the end of the day, I guess you just need to be okay when you make decisions because I don’t think we can ever be right or you’re good or in our lanes or it’s always, it’s always a guilt and shame scenario when at least my experience is when I do what I need to do for me to feel Good about me. Inevitably, somebody gets hurt.
Speaker A [00:30:00]: The side effect is you’re an. To somebody else to somebody. Right.
Speaker B [00:30:04]: And it’s like, okay, well, I don’t know what to tell you.
Speaker A [00:30:07]: And when that’s not a prioritized value of someone else in your life. This is not the case for Philip, but let’s pretend it was Philip’s case that at all times you needed to be nice and kind and like, don’t. Don’t rock the boat with other people. If that doesn’t jive with your possible. Your personality of. Okay, I’m setting a boundary, and this is what I’m doing now. You have tension even in your own marriage.
Speaker B [00:30:29]: That’s right.
Speaker A [00:30:30]: Because it’s his value that’s butting up against your value. He wasn’t even in the situation, but he doesn’t like that you respond in it a certain way.
Speaker B [00:30:36]: Right.
Speaker A [00:30:36]: Right.
Speaker B [00:30:37]: Yeah. So I think that’s where. That’s why I personally keep tight. Because it’s very difficult to be all things to all people and still be okay from. For me, it’s hard. It’s. That’s hard to be. I don’t know how people do it.
Speaker A [00:31:00]: And when I’m hearing. When we’re talking about this, I’m also thinking about my own personality and how if I’m being true to my own personality, I am the kind of person that wants to see other people at all times, whether you’re the person at the drive through, whether you’re the person ringing the bell for the kettle in front of Walmart at Christmas time, whether you are the homeless person on the street. And so if I so desperately just want that part of my personality to be okay, I also have to recognize that just because it’s okay for me doesn’t mean that it’s going to be honored and respected by others. And that’s the rub I keep coming up against over and over again. And so knowing that I can only ever change myself, I only ever have control over myself. I don’t have control over how other people react. That means I need to alter or redefine or manage a part of my core personality to be with the world in a way that doesn’t feel authentic to me, but requires me to be that way if I want to stay safe or if I want to not be giving my time away to people all of the time or. Right. And that, well, maybe you can just.
Speaker B [00:32:19]: Find a minor switch. Like, for me, I value kindness and acknowledgement. So when we’re at the checkout counter, I will Smile and say hello. Like pleasantries. But I’m not going to ask questions or engage in a conversation.
Speaker A [00:32:36]: What if they start to engage in a conversation with you and ask questions?
Speaker B [00:32:41]: I’ll respond, but I most likely won’t ask questions back. Depending. Depending on the scenario.
Speaker A [00:32:48]: And then if all of a sudden during that conversation they were like, oh, my God, I just feel such a beautiful connection with you. They do. The thing like you’re talking about with the. Oh, my God, you got that at Maurices. I saw that. Right? That. The shirt. If they engage and they’re like, this is going to sound so crazy, but I just feel spiritually we are so freaking connected.
Speaker B [00:33:04]: It has never happened in the history of my life.
Speaker C [00:33:07]: But.
Speaker B [00:33:07]: Okay.
Speaker A [00:33:08]: Do you have an email address or a phone number that you would be willing. This happens to me constantly.
Speaker B [00:33:13]: That’s. That’s.
Speaker A [00:33:14]: But if it did. Yeah, if it did. What’s more important in that moment? You setting the boundary that’s important to you or you not being rude that someone just asked for something from you because they connected with you in some way and they want to continue the conversation?
Speaker C [00:33:34]: You could set. You could still set that boundary and not be rude.
Speaker A [00:33:37]: Like, what. What would that sound like?
Speaker C [00:33:39]: That.
Speaker B [00:33:40]: It.
Speaker C [00:33:41]: I guess it would sound like. That’s really nice of you to say, but I’m really. That’s not really something that I do, you know. Thank you. Have a great day.
Speaker A [00:33:50]: Here’s what I’m getting at. There’s not a chance in hell, Rebecca saying that. Well, nobody’s going to say to me.
Speaker B [00:33:55]: I’d like to continue this conversation.
Speaker A [00:33:57]: You know what? Saying that she’s like, yeah, absolutely. Here’s my email address, and it’s erin Firefly, Bird Sorrow, right8@gmail.com. make sure that you type it incorrectly. Sometimes it goes to the wrong address. She made that shit up right on the spot. And then she got herself out of there and then she’ll never go back to that Hobby lobby ever again.
Speaker B [00:34:19]: I mean, that probably would happen. Or. I. Yeah. Never know. There. What. There are scenarios where I’ve had like a conference and some stuff. I’m not talking cashiers. Like conferences where you might have gone to a session with someone or you had a lunch with someone because you were assigned or whatever, and then there was a connection there. Even then, the likelihood that I would continue that conversation is super slim.
Speaker A [00:34:47]: But you’d give them your contact information and then just not respond or say.
Speaker B [00:34:51]: Yeah, I’m on LinkedIn. Go ahead, look me up. You can contact me through there. And then I don’t ever go on LinkedIn, so I just wouldn’t engage. Or it would depend on what they said to me. I would just pick and choose. It would depend.
Speaker A [00:35:03]: And so that is one of the differences between us, because it feels inauthentic for me to provide anything other than the truthful answer of how they can get a hold of me. That also then makes me vulnerable and susceptible. And I’m mad with the outcome associated with that. But if I was like, oh, yeah, absolutely, connect with me on LinkedIn knowing I never went on LinkedIn, I’d have trouble sleeping for eight days because I would be like, you sent them to this other place and you know, they were looking for you and that, you know, they couldn’t find you. And then that wasn’t. And so that. I don’t know what that is. Is that a defense mechanism or is that a value? Right. And so.
Speaker B [00:35:45]: Well, it must come down to the fact that at the end of the day, you want people to be seen. Therefore that’s a very different lead than I am. I’m just being pleasant and nice. I really don’t care if you were felt seen. So therefore I don’t think we would ever connect. The only reason we would connect is because we might have had a common reason to maybe work together. The likelihood that I’m going to socialize with someone I met at a conference is slim to none.
Speaker A [00:36:18]: But I think it’s even as, as minute as how you say hello and greet someone.
Speaker B [00:36:23]: Oh, it’s very clear.
Speaker A [00:36:25]: Because you will, you will go up to someone at a conference and you will say, hi, nice to meet you. Right? I’m Rebecca. Then you’ll go sit on the other side of the room, right? And I will be like, hi, it’s so nice to meet you.
Speaker B [00:36:39]: Right.
Speaker A [00:36:40]: And then I’ve engaged in a handshake at that point, right? And it’s a double sided handshake. It’s the one where I’ve sandwiched your hand in between both of my hands because I got to make sure that, you know, your hand feels safe in this handshake moment. Right? No, it’s true. And then I’m like.
Speaker B [00:36:58]: Where are you from?
Speaker A [00:37:00]: Have you been to this conference before? Or, you know, whatever. But if I walked in there and was like, hey, how are you? And then sat on the other side, that doesn’t feel genuine to my personality. So I really constantly feel like I’m at this crossroads of be true to yourself and deal with the repercussions. Of other people or fake it and not have to deal with them, which then makes me feel like shit. So it’s really an interesting crossroads, if you will, about establishing what is inappropriate, empathic and caring response that doesn’t make me take people home with me, but also doesn’t make me feel inauthentic. And I’ve not yet perfected that. I don’t know what that’s supposed to look like or. I think you have to.
Speaker B [00:37:54]: Well, I think you have to keep going through the feelings. I think you have to keep going through it, identify it, compare it to how it makes you feel when you do go down that rabbit hole and you’re annoyed. I think it’s. Maybe it’s just trial and maybe this is the neurodivergence component. I don’t know.
Speaker A [00:38:12]: Right. Because I always say when the pain of staying becomes greater than the pain of leaving, that’s when people leave. So is it the case that when the pain of having to tend to everyone’s emotional distraughtness is greater than the pain of not, that’s when I’ll make a change? Is it that same type of scenario? I see little microwaves in which I am changing that, you know, by not engaging and then trying to be okay with that. But that also relates to the inner sense of why am I doing it to begin with?
Speaker B [00:38:50]: So maybe that’s the core. What is it about your inner child that feels the need to be the savior, feels the need to be a certain way or the world won’t be okay.
Speaker A [00:39:02]: And I talked about this two Saturdays ago, and we can end with this because I think this is a massively thought provoking statement for people. We were, after a group meeting, we ended up going to Leaf and Bean. And when we were at Leaf and Bean, what we came to, the determination is that the one thing that we are innately to other people in the world.
Speaker B [00:39:26]: When you say we people, human beings.
Speaker A [00:39:29]: Yes, this is true. I don’t know if you meant that, but we think that it’s true for everyone. Okay? Human beings, the one thing that is important for you, that you will do excessively for other people is the one thing that you never had fulfilled for yourself. So for me, me seeing other people and wanting them to be seen and wanting to see that they matter and wanting to really get at the core of who they are as a person is the one thing that has been unfulfilled for me through a majority of my life, whether I was young, all the way up until probably last week, five minutes ago, mid-20s, early-30s, and still in some places in my life, continue to be massively unseen. And so Nina was identifying. What it was for her, and hers is rather similar to mine, is that she constantly feels the need to make sure that people are okay and know that they are not alone and that they are seen and recognized for who they are, but that there’s always options and that they never have to go through life alone. Well, you look back at Nina’s life, and what is the one thing she needed from early, early on all the way up is she needed someone to say to her, I got you. I’ll be your support person. I’ll help you out of this situation. You’re not alone in this. This is difficult, and I’m here for you. Right. So I would be fascinated to hear from our listeners what is the thing that you do excessively right now for other people, even to your own detriment. That is also related to what you desperately needed when you were younger or at whatever point in your life and have still to this day, not half fulfilled. To round out that conversation. What we realized was I can continue to make other people feel overly seen as much as possible. It’s still not feeling. Filling my past void. She can continue to try and save people, to let them know that they’re not alone. She still recognizes that she was alone her entire early life.
Speaker B [00:41:38]: Yeah. So if the inner child isn’t healed, then there’s no way to change the patterns.
Speaker A [00:41:42]: Exactly. And that comes full circle to what you were talking about with hypnotherapy and with IFS therapy and all these things. We constantly are trying to fulfill the void of what we needed through what we’re giving to other people. And what is that? And at what point do we recognize it doesn’t matter how many people I’ve seen, and it doesn’t matter how many people Nina has saved. It still doesn’t fix little Erin who wasn’t seen. And it still doesn’t fix little Nina that wasn’t saved. That’s crazy. All right. Here is my affirmation card. I know that I will attract everyone and everything aligned with my purpose. I am magnetic.
Speaker B [00:42:33]: And our tarot card is strength, stability. This card shows patience in the face of conflict, you standing your ground rather than being overwhelmed. What opposes you is lower than you are. This may be your own fear, guilt, or other emotions that shake your confidence. Or a person who is acting in an unreasonable way by projecting these emotions onto you. Having compassion while keeping your personal boundaries strong and refusing to be taken advantage of shows the strength of your character. An additional meaning in this card is literal physical strength.
Speaker A [00:43:08]: How is everyone in the world not listening to this podcast at this point? I mean, how are you not on this train? Right? How are you not on this. This train? If you’re listening to this podcast, please share. Please share this podcast with five people who need to hear it in the depths of their soul so that mama don’t have to work anymore. All right?
Speaker C [00:43:33]: Amen.
Speaker B [00:43:34]: I loved that.
Speaker A [00:43:36]: Me too. Isn’t empathy amazing?
Speaker B [00:43:39]: Well, we’re amazing. I don’t know about all this empathy stuff.
Speaker A [00:43:42]: That’s fine. I accept you wherever you are. Oh, God, I love you.
Speaker B [00:43:48]: I love you, too.
Speaker A [00:43:50]: And if you love us, please like and subscribe to more Love the Power of Empathy podcast. Wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker B [00:43:58]: See you next time.
Speaker B [00:00:02]: So maybe that’s the core. What is it about your inner child that feels the need to be the savior? Feels the need to be a certain way or the world won’t be okay.
Speaker A [00:00:23]: Hey, it’s me, Erin. Thanks for joining us on the More Love podcast. Do not tell Rebecca, but this podcast is about empathy. She likes people to think she’s dead inside, but the truth is she’s a big time feeler who has truly helped me uncover that empathy is my superpower. Here she comes.
Speaker B [00:00:42]: Hey, bestie.
Speaker A [00:00:43]: Hi, love.
Speaker B [00:00:44]: What are you doing?
Speaker A [00:00:45]: Oh, just getting ready to host a podcast.
Speaker B [00:00:48]: A podcast about what?
Speaker A [00:00:50]: Life. Our life as best friends. Who? More like sisters.
Speaker B [00:00:54]: Ah.
Speaker A [00:00:55]: Yay.
Speaker B [00:00:55]: I love us. And I can’t wait to share our.
Speaker A [00:00:57]: Stories with the world, especially the ones that involve us pushing each other right. To be our most authentic selves.
Speaker B [00:01:04]: Oh, man. Okay.
Speaker A [00:01:09]: I want to tell you this story of this stupid ass kids book that Carter was listening to on YouTube while I was in line at Dunkin Donuts two days ago.
Speaker B [00:01:18]: Okay.
Speaker A [00:01:20]: The book went something like this. A duck walked up to a lemonade stand and said, do you have any grapes? And the man said, no, I do not. I just sell lemonade. But would you like some lemonade? And the duck just walked away.
Speaker B [00:01:33]: Oh.
Speaker A [00:01:34]: The next day, the duck walked up to the lemonade stand and said, do you have any grapes? And the man said, no, I do not. I just have lemonade. Like I said yesterday, do you want any lemonade? And the duck just walked away. The next day, the duck came up to the lemonade stand and said, do you have any grapes? And the man said, if you ask me one more time if I have grapes, I’m going to glue you to that tree and leave you there. I only have lemonade. That’s all I sell. The duck went away. The duck came back the fourth day and said, do you have any glue? And the man looked at him and he said, because I’m wondering if you have any grapes. And the man said, you know what? He said, I’m all done with you asking me this question, so let’s get in the car and go to the store and I will buy you some grapes. Don’t come back here. So they get in the car and the man and the duck go in, goes and gets the grapes, goes through the line, and the. And the duck turns to the man and the man hands the grapes to the duck and said, here you go, duck. Here’s your grapes. And the duck said, I don’t want grapes? Do you have any lemonade? That sigh right there. I look at Carter and he’s. He’s laughing. He thinks it’s hilarious. And I said, what the f is wrong with that duck?
Speaker C [00:03:06]: Is that duck on a reality show about villains and stuff?
Speaker B [00:03:10]: What? I think the duck is not.
Speaker A [00:03:11]: Something is wrong with that duck and car. Just laugh, laugh, laugh. He thinks that’s so funny. I’m like, everything about that is not okay.
Speaker C [00:03:22]: What’s the point of that? Like, what’s the moral? What’s. What’s. What is that?
Speaker A [00:03:26]: It’s a great question. There’s a whole podcast episode in and.
Speaker C [00:03:29]: Of itself, but it won’t be this one.
Speaker B [00:03:31]: Well, maybe I know what we do. I know exactly what we do. What? We’re going to contact that author. Yeah. Have them on the goddamn podcast and be like, I need to discuss with you what this is.
Speaker A [00:03:40]: That’s right. Why did you do this?
Speaker B [00:03:42]: Right.
Speaker A [00:03:42]: Why did you do this? I’ve never heard any of it before. Why the heck are we doing that? But of course, because I can’t just let it go. I think to myself, how many people is that in people’s lives?
Speaker B [00:03:54]: Oh, yes.
Speaker A [00:03:56]: That is such a metaphor for. You give. You set a boundary, or you say, no, I don’t have that. No, I don’t have that. No, I don’t have that. No, sorry, I don’t have that. And then all of a sudden, you give to someone and they’re like, oh, I didn’t want that anyway. And then it’s like a question of, like, were you just trying to get me to cave? Were you just trying to see how far you could push? Like, what is it? And then how do you have the audacity at the end of the day to tell me after I’ve already bought you the grapes that you don’t want the grapes, you want the lemonade. So I, probably, due to just where I’m at in my life right now, found myself wanting to flow. Oh, yeah. I was livid. I was like, f that duck. Are you kidding me? And then the duck just walks away.
Speaker B [00:04:46]: Right.
Speaker A [00:04:47]: Unfazed.
Speaker B [00:04:48]: Yep. Yep. Intentional.
Speaker A [00:04:51]: So I have a couple other examples of this phenomenon that has been happening. So one of them was someone who friended me on LinkedIn. And he was like, I have this information that I think you might really care about, and it’s related to schools and how to identify active shooters and threat assessment and these types of things. And I said, this is really great information. I appreciate this. I do sit on the National Behavioral Intervention and Threat Assessment Association Board. Are you familiar with that organization or would you like me to connect you with the president? He says, I am familiar with. Familiar with that organization, but I would really love an introduction. I said, be happy to do that. So I send an email between the president of NEBITA and this man and myself and say, just wanted to make a virtual introduction. This person seems to have some really interesting things that might, you know, be a great conference topic or.
Speaker B [00:05:54]: Right.
Speaker A [00:05:54]: I don’t know anything about this man other than what I read through. Looks pretty interesting. I send that message joining the two of them, and not three minutes later do I not get a phone call that identifies this man’s name on my phone. And I get my phone number. How the hell did this man get my phone number? So he leaves a message that says, thanks so much for making that introduction. I really appreciate it, but I really still have some questions for you and would love to talk with you. I realize he got my phone number because my phone number is in my email signature. Right. So he leaves that message and I.
Speaker B [00:06:30]: Think, first action, remove that.
Speaker A [00:06:31]: Oh, yeah. Oh, God. Especially because it’s my personal phone number. Gone.
Speaker B [00:06:36]: Gone.
Speaker A [00:06:36]: That’s. We’re all done there.
Speaker B [00:06:37]: Yeah.
Speaker A [00:06:38]: So I delete the message, which is a big deal for me. Usually I would feel that I needed to call someone back or whatever. Next thing you know, I get another email that is joint email that is like, oh, I’d love to meet with you. This is great. I’d love to talk to you about this. Whatever. Now, the president in a bit is super busy. There’s a conference coming up, so she’s not responded yet. The very next day, there’s another email. Here’s a link to my calendar. Here’s how, if you can get connected, would really love to talk with you. Right. I’m like, oh, this is too incessant. Right? This is too many people. Do you have any grapes? Do you have any grapes?
Speaker B [00:07:11]: Do you have any grapes?
Speaker A [00:07:12]: Do you have any grapes? Like, it’s too much of that, right? So then he calls my phone again and doesn’t leave a message this time. And I write to him on LinkedIn and I say, I’m not interested in speaking with you at this time. And if I choose to be interested in speaking with you in the future, I will be sure to reach out, but I would appreciate if you do not continue to contact me.
Speaker B [00:07:36]: Yeah.
Speaker A [00:07:37]: And he said, thank you very much, Aaron. I appreciate it. You know, I will. I will not. So I’m thinking To myself in this moment. I really hate that I had to flex that muscle to begin with to let you know that you can’t just spam me with tons of messages because you now have a bunch of extra information that now you’re gonna, you’re gonna flood my inbox and you’re gonna flood my phone and you’re gonna like, that is not okay. Why I have to set that boundary to begin with is annoying to me, but I was also proud of myself for setting the boundary.
Speaker B [00:08:08]: Yeah.
Speaker A [00:08:08]: Example number two, There’s a man on Facebook who’s very interested in our podcast and would like to help us optimize our SEO and our taglines and that kind of stuff, which I greatly appreciate and have engaged in some conversations back and forth with this individual. And finally I realized because some things have changed about the podcast where Joe and Scott are taking over more of the thumbnails, the clips that are going to get posted. I don’t review the episodes anymore. They come up with the taglines and they’re doing a lot of that from an SEO standpoint. So I respond and say that I have passed his information on to essentially Joe and if he, if Joe is interested in his services, he will be in touch. And I say, you know, what’s the best way to contact you? And he sends me all of his contact information. This is at 1:30 in the morning on Sunday because I, or, sorry, Saturday, I was having a hard time sleeping. And then when I struggle with sleeping, I go in and I just answer emails or whatever. He says, okay, thank you very much. So your guy’s going to be in touch with me and I very clearly say my guy will be in touch with you in the event he would like to use your services. I’ve given him all of the information that you’ve provided and I forgot at the time. Scott has access to all of the messages, so can see, you know, what services he’s able to offer. He’s a realistic rate and from what he’s saying, whether this is true or not does seem to have the ability to be able to re optimize and improve optimization of channels and has said things like, your content is different. I really like your content. I really think that, you know, you have great opportunities here. Great. I don’t want to have to deal with any of that. But Joe is doing a phenomenal job with that. So I say, I’ve passed the information on and if he would like to be in touch with you, then he’ll be in touch with you. That was at 1:30 in the morning, 7:30, 9 in the morning. I haven’t heard from your guy. So I write this message that essentially says, I’m aware because it was 1:30 in the morning my time when I sent that message. It’s also a Saturday or a Sunday and most people don’t work on the weekends. And as I said in the message, my guy will be in touch with you if he’d like to use your services. I do not want to continue to answer message after message after message from you about this. And I need you to trust that he will be in touch if he wants to be in trust. And if you in touch and if you do not hear from him, that you take that as a final answer that we are not interested. So he put a heart on the message. And then today I get another message and I’m livid when I go in there and it just says, got it.
Speaker B [00:11:17]: Unreal.
Speaker A [00:11:18]: Now do I know that he’s got it? I don’t. No, I don’t. My next step is we’re going to just delete him, right? And we’re all going to block him and we’re all done.
Speaker C [00:11:29]: He’s been contacting the page for a long time.
Speaker A [00:11:31]: Oh, yeah.
Speaker C [00:11:32]: Like he’s been back and forth for months and months.
Speaker A [00:11:34]: Maybe even, to be fair, I have kept him on that line because I do think that in my mind before Joe was coming in to do some of this stuff, it was going to be helpful to me. The. What I couldn’t get behind is giving him access to the back end of our channel to change things. I didn’t, I didn’t like that. I, I. Only people I feel comfortable doing that with are Scott and Joe. I don’t even want to give you access to the back end.
Speaker B [00:11:57]: I don’t want it.
Speaker A [00:11:58]: Not, not, not that you care because you wouldn’t do anything in there.
Speaker B [00:12:01]: But I will never go in there. Even if you’re like, would you please go do this? No, I won’t.
Speaker A [00:12:08]: Yeah, I’ll get to it. Yeah, I’ll take care of it. Yeah, it’s on my list.
Speaker B [00:12:11]: It’s on my list. It keeps getting down further and further.
Speaker A [00:12:14]: So those were a couple examples. I had a third one that’s completely escaped me right now of just examples where people are like, do you have any grapes? Do you have any grapes? Do you have any grapes? Do you have any grapes?
Speaker C [00:12:25]: This is the way things are now. I get emails all the time. The same thing, your SEO, your SEO this and that. And they send an email, then they send another email, then they send another email, then they say, I mean, it keeps going. Usually back in the day, if I could recall, you send an email. If someone doesn’t reply, maybe you send another one. And if they don’t reply to that one, then you give up. But these people just keep hammering on. And I think a lot of times it’s not even a person, it’s just a bot.
Speaker B [00:12:51]: It’s a bot.
Speaker C [00:12:51]: It’s a bot that’s doing it.
Speaker B [00:12:53]: And it’s a templated thing that is scheduled.
Speaker C [00:12:56]: Yeah, that’s scheduled. And says, oh, keep going. So I don’t know which ones are which, but.
Speaker A [00:13:01]: And what impact does that have? So think about that. Right? When we think about empathy and we think about empathy is typically the response that we give to genuine interactions of wanting to make sure that the person on the other end of a communication is still whole at the end of that conversation. And when you are someone who wants to try and find a balance between making sure that person still feels whole, even the guy who’s calling my phone multiple times and emailing me multiple times, I want him to still feel whole at the end, even though I have been impacted, you know? And then if he continued to contact me after that point, I would be like, now I no longer care that you are whole. Now I will lash you verbally or I will block you, or I will say, right, because I’ve given you more than enough. But what does it do to empathy when you now have engagements that are incessant? They are approaching you in your private spaces, they are not caring about your own boundaries and what you have said or wanted in this interaction. In some cases, they’re not even human. They’re bots. Right. And so you have these bots that you don’t need to interact with empathically. But sometimes it’s hard to determine what is a bot versus what is a real person. Do you think any of this is related to empathy fatigue or to the fact that people now are much more short, they feel more guarded, they’re more protective, they feel like they can’t trust situations as much. And, like, how is that impacting people’s ability to be empathic?
Speaker B [00:14:45]: Well, I think. I think it’s just the world we live in today. And, I mean, you’re speaking about a very specific kind of role, right? These people are sales. That’s what you’re supposed to do in sales. And I don’t think sales people give a shit about empathy.
Speaker C [00:15:01]: Yeah, I don’t think anybody what I was going to say. I’m like, sales and empathy do not.
Speaker B [00:15:05]: They’re not coexist. No. And at the end of the day, they just need a sale and they will say whatever they need to say to you to get on your calendar and waste your time. Really.
Speaker A [00:15:14]: And that’s dangerous for a person who has a lot of empathy and assumes that all people come from a good place.
Speaker B [00:15:20]: Correct.
Speaker A [00:15:21]: Because I have been hoodwinked twice, I can think of by two people that I thought genuinely cared about the impact that they were going to have. And at the end of the day, when there wasn’t a quick enough return or it wasn’t going to work out for them or something better came along, they didn’t give a flying F at the end of the day. And then I’m, I’m sitting there like, wow, I am so confused that this is where we’re at right now.
Speaker B [00:15:50]: I learned a long time ago to. When it. When it comes to those kinds of situations, you’ve got to make those people jump through at least three different hoops. And if they successfully manage that, then they may earn your attention for a couple of minutes.
Speaker A [00:16:10]: What would be an example of a hoop?
Speaker B [00:16:11]: When that guy reached out to you through Facebook. Let’s just use the.
Speaker A [00:16:15]: Yeah, sos.
Speaker B [00:16:16]: What’s it called?
Speaker A [00:16:16]: Yeah, which one? The. As it is an SOS most of.
Speaker B [00:16:20]: The time Facebook SEO for. For more love. Okay, let’s use the sos yeah. Had he now granted you, you told a little bit of a backstory. Pretend that backstory doesn’t exist. Pretend he just reached out to you and it was this, this, you know, like, irritating. I would have said, great. Send me three specific examples of what you would consider doing and I’ll review them through email or through a video or through whatever. And then on my own time, I would review it. If I liked that, then I would go back with another follow up, make him do the work to convince me that he earns five minutes of my calendar. I learned that a long time ago. I’m, I’m even, even with co workers, you don’t, you don’t get to just have a meeting if you can’t send it in an email. And it has to be a meeting. I really need to know why. Because there’s just no time. There’s just no time. So it’s got to be. You’ve got. Everybody has to jump through certain hoops to get to a certain point. Because at the end of the day there. If you can’t jump through those hoops, then you’re not going to follow through.
Speaker A [00:17:26]: With anything in the relationship.
Speaker B [00:17:28]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A [00:17:30]: That’s really interesting.
Speaker B [00:17:31]: Which is why oftentimes with job interviews these days, they make you. It’s not just a cover letter and a resume. It’s. They make you do these video calls. Not video calls. It’s this, I don’t know what you call it. It’s like five different questions and they want to see your reaction in the moment. It’s as though you’re talking to somebody and the committee is going to review that. They’re going to judge what you look like. They’re going to. All these things are going to happen through that because they’re not going to waste their time meeting with 20 people when they can narrow it down very easily to the top two or three to do the in person. It’s, it’s just, it’s a time efficiency situation.
Speaker A [00:18:05]: I would say on a daily basis, like you, Scott, I probably get 35 to 45 emails that are selling you something wanting to engage with me in some way, shape or form. Yep. Nope. And what I’ve done essentially is just, I go in and I just mark them all as spam. And now that I’ve marked them all as spam, I’m getting a few less, you know, not a ton. They always find some way to work around that system. But why that’s frustrating to me is that now take me as an empathic person who really wants to reach out to case managers to say I have a tool that would really value, that would really benefit your students and also free up your time to do something else. My emails are being seen in exactly the same way as the other sleazy sales emails.
Speaker B [00:18:59]: Yep. I mean the best example, I’m, I’m right now interviewing, interviewing sales teams for a specific product I’m looking for. And I went on to the websites. I was the one with the initial reach out. You know, when you go sign up for a demo, you know. Yeah, I went and did that to maybe four or five, maybe even six different systems. I immediately was put into their queue of crap. So now my entire inbox is flooded with their crap that I don’t even want. I reached out to you specific. I had to speak. I also shut people down real fast with demos. I’m like, I’m, I. Right now my main priority, I’m going to decide if I want to even consider you based on the price. They don’t want to tell me the price. They want to Give me the demo. And right away I say, I’m really sorry. I have, I know I signed up for a 30 minute call. I only have five minutes and I need to know the price right now because the price will determine if I want a demo and what’s negotiating. What, where can we negotiate in the price if the price is firm and whatever, whatever. I will decide if I’m willing to entertain that. So then I narrowed that down real fast to the top two that I wanted demos from.
Speaker A [00:20:02]: Does it feel different to you if you’re emailing with someone or if you’re on the call for those 30 minutes and in the first five minutes you’re like, hey, I just wanted to let you know, what’s the price? Does it feel, does it feel different? Does your ability to be able to bust that down so quickly change when you are face to face with a person in a meeting?
Speaker B [00:20:22]: No. Like when I’m doing the zoom call versus the phone call.
Speaker A [00:20:25]: Yeah. No, I say a zoom call versus an email.
Speaker B [00:20:28]: No. Right away I’m like, I don’t need to know any other information. My main priority is the, is the price.
Speaker A [00:20:33]: And if the person is like, I understand, I understand, but we just need to do the demo use.
Speaker B [00:20:37]: I’ll say, no, I’m not. I’m. I’ll find somebody else, thank you. And delete them. I don’t, I do not have time. Because right there, that tells me you are going to tell me something I don’t like. You’re going to. Your price point is out of here. It’s just, it’s not, it’s not where I need it to be.
Speaker A [00:20:52]: So how do you not associate that with a lack of empathy on my part? Yeah.
Speaker B [00:20:59]: A lack of empathy. What, what am I. I’m empathetic on the fact that they have a job to do. What am I empathetic about?
Speaker A [00:21:06]: Well, it’s a human being and they want to talk.
Speaker B [00:21:09]: I’m not wasting their time.
Speaker A [00:21:09]: Either something that’s important to them or they want an opportunity to chat with you about, you know, or maybe their sales tactic is it’s best if I show you the ways in which this is different or. Right. I’m. It’s hard in a sales type example, but the shutting down of having continued conversation when you’re face to face with someone. One example would be that guy from that company. You know what I’m talking about? The company that we work with in Concern center that he got real weird real quick in that for me. Oh, yeah.
Speaker B [00:21:50]: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A [00:21:50]: Right. You know what I’m talking about. Right.
Speaker B [00:21:52]: That’s how I discovered my. My telephone number was in my signature.
Speaker A [00:21:57]: Okay.
Speaker B [00:21:57]: Because I got a phone call.
Speaker A [00:21:58]: That’s a great example of one that you weren’t like that at that point. That was only a couple of years ago, but you were still entertaining at that point.
Speaker B [00:22:07]: His he wasn’t selling to me weirdness. Correct. Because he wasn’t selling to me. I had. I had an action that I had to do for my job, and it was constantly being held up with problems on their side. So was I kind and whatever. Yes. Because I. My mission was to get my job done. Same response here. My mission is to get my job done. All I need to know right now is the price. The price is going to determine if I’m going to move forward.
Speaker A [00:22:34]: So when he called. Right. For something completely unrelated, which one threw you real the hell off? Because you were like, okay, this. I don’t understand how you got my phone number. Why we’re talking. Once I figured that out.
Speaker B [00:22:44]: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A [00:22:45]: In that moment, you’re in a place. It was real weird where you did not immediately say so and so.
Speaker B [00:22:52]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. Real confused.
Speaker A [00:22:56]: I’m confused about how you got my phone number and why we’re having this conversation right now. I don’t have time for this phone conversation. And.
Speaker B [00:23:02]: Yeah.
Speaker A [00:23:03]: And I’m wondering if that was more about.
Speaker B [00:23:05]: It was the buildup. It was the buildup because we had numerous zoom calls, and there was so much downtime when processing was happening that we had social conversations. Conversations. So I understood why it went further. I just thought it was weird.
Speaker A [00:23:19]: So that then points out to me something that we’ve talked about on this podcast before, which is it’s easier to set empathy boundaries when you do not have a relationship in any way, shape.
Speaker B [00:23:31]: Or form or connect on anything. That’s not business. That’s a terrible way to say it, but.
Speaker A [00:23:37]: Well, the emails that are coming in that are spamming my inbox, I don’t have any relationship. I can just push them to the side.
Speaker B [00:23:44]: But if I’m on. Here’s a sales tech tactic that would work for me if I’m on a zoom call. And immediately I. I’m all business. Right. I’m not. I’m trying not to engage. Whatever. But if they’re like, oh, my gosh, I realized when you emailed me that your headshot outfit was from blah, blah, blah, and I have that exact same outfit right there. We’re now connected. So now I’m going To give you more time. Just because. Not because you complimented me, but because you. You did something that was. Yes, yes.
Speaker A [00:24:12]: I’ll give you values.
Speaker B [00:24:13]: That’s right. I’ll give you a little bit more time.
Speaker A [00:24:15]: Yeah.
Speaker B [00:24:16]: Because of that.
Speaker A [00:24:17]: Right?
Speaker B [00:24:17]: Yeah. So that’s what happened with that guy.
Speaker A [00:24:19]: Yeah.
Speaker B [00:24:19]: Because we had downtime. We were connecting on, just. We were just chit chatting.
Speaker A [00:24:23]: Right. So. But also, one part of your personality that is one of those balloons that we talked about in the last episode is that you’ve been trained your entire life to not make people feel bad. And so you will also placate or, you know, maybe you’re listening to him, but you’re still doing work behind the scenes or whatever. And because it’s not necessarily empathy that you’re giving to this person, it’s fighting against your own demon of not wanting to be rude. Because you’ve been trained to believe that being rude or not giving people the time of day, even if you’re faking it, is not an okay personality trait to have.
Speaker B [00:25:12]: Well, that’s the other thing we talked about the other day. Boundaries equals rude. Right.
Speaker A [00:25:19]: So we’ve both identified that when it comes to setting those boundaries, that we have had fears and feelings with the fact that, wow, I really love the word boundaries. But then when it comes to actually putting boundaries up, that somehow in our deepest parts of self, we have been told or have determined that a boundary means I don’t see you, I don’t care about you, I don’t want anything to do with you. You might as well just be slapping the person across the face and being like, get out of here. No one wants to talk to you. You’re the bully on the playground. Right, Right.
Speaker B [00:25:53]: So when you operate from that lens, that can be challenging. Yeah.
Speaker A [00:26:00]: And so that’s the part that’s interesting for me. We started by talking about, is there empathy fatigue? And I’m finding that more and more people now are quicker to be snappier, to be less likely to engage, to not even put themselves out there to have the conversation, because it becomes a vulnerable place where you can easily be attacked by the mob of LinkedIn messages and phone calls, by the incessant messaging on Facebook. Something that has always gotten me. Whenever I’m in New York City and I always see a homeless person, I very often feel compelled to be like, hi, how are you? You know, or, you know, here’s $5. Or like, wanting to just let that person be seen. Right. But I find myself not engaging in that at all because I Am so afraid that even opening the door to have that conversation now leads me down the path of, well, could you just buy me some lunch? Well, that’s your experience too, right?
Speaker B [00:27:13]: Yeah.
Speaker A [00:27:13]: I’m very easily swindled into having to do all and be all for someone, which is why I struggle. You’ve probably seen these reels or whatever where it’s some famous violinist.
Speaker B [00:27:30]: Oh yeah. Who’s playing in the.
Speaker A [00:27:31]: Who’s playing.
Speaker B [00:27:32]: And people ignore him and they’re like.
Speaker A [00:27:34]: How many people walked past this person and didn’t realize, you know, whatever that this is who this was? And I find myself in those moments being like, we’re shaming people for not opening themselves up to an experience that they’ve had 99 out of 100 times by now, trying to get them to think that that one person you walk past may be famous, that one person you walk past may be the person that you’ve saved. That one person. Right. And so it’s now we’re using empathized or weaponized empathy to try and make people feel bad. I feel this way if I go into a part of the city that intuitively doesn’t feel safe to me and I lock my doors, I feel like an asshole.
Speaker B [00:28:25]: Because you might have offended the robber on the corner.
Speaker A [00:28:27]: I must be. I must be racist.
Speaker B [00:28:29]: Or you offended the perfectly nice person on the corner.
Speaker A [00:28:32]: Right?
Speaker B [00:28:32]: Yeah, I know.
Speaker A [00:28:33]: Must be, you know, whatever that feeling in is coming from. Subliminal. Whatever. This is why kids get taken by nasty ass humans in vans because they don’t want to be rude or say, no thank you, I don’t want to see your dog or no, I don’t want that. You know, that’s exactly the tactic that they use, is that they get you to feel bad that you’re not engaging in a conversation. Right. So all of that to say I just have this overall feeling or sense that empathy’s so frickin complicated.
Speaker B [00:29:13]: Oh yeah. Oh, and we live in such a small world now that we’re getting bombarded in every aspect possible.
Speaker A [00:29:21]: Yes.
Speaker B [00:29:21]: And so when you. To reference our last session, you have to pick and choose where your priorities and your values lie that make up your personality. And at the end of the day, I guess you just need to be okay when you make decisions because I don’t think we can ever be right or you’re good or in our lanes or it’s always, it’s always a guilt and shame scenario when at least my experience is when I do what I need to do for me to feel Good about me. Inevitably, somebody gets hurt.
Speaker A [00:30:00]: The side effect is you’re an. To somebody else to somebody. Right.
Speaker B [00:30:04]: And it’s like, okay, well, I don’t know what to tell you.
Speaker A [00:30:07]: And when that’s not a prioritized value of someone else in your life. This is not the case for Philip, but let’s pretend it was Philip’s case that at all times you needed to be nice and kind and like, don’t. Don’t rock the boat with other people. If that doesn’t jive with your possible. Your personality of. Okay, I’m setting a boundary, and this is what I’m doing now. You have tension even in your own marriage.
Speaker B [00:30:29]: That’s right.
Speaker A [00:30:30]: Because it’s his value that’s butting up against your value. He wasn’t even in the situation, but he doesn’t like that you respond in it a certain way.
Speaker B [00:30:36]: Right.
Speaker A [00:30:36]: Right.
Speaker B [00:30:37]: Yeah. So I think that’s where. That’s why I personally keep tight. Because it’s very difficult to be all things to all people and still be okay from. For me, it’s hard. It’s. That’s hard to be. I don’t know how people do it.
Speaker A [00:31:00]: And when I’m hearing. When we’re talking about this, I’m also thinking about my own personality and how if I’m being true to my own personality, I am the kind of person that wants to see other people at all times, whether you’re the person at the drive through, whether you’re the person ringing the bell for the kettle in front of Walmart at Christmas time, whether you are the homeless person on the street. And so if I so desperately just want that part of my personality to be okay, I also have to recognize that just because it’s okay for me doesn’t mean that it’s going to be honored and respected by others. And that’s the rub I keep coming up against over and over again. And so knowing that I can only ever change myself, I only ever have control over myself. I don’t have control over how other people react. That means I need to alter or redefine or manage a part of my core personality to be with the world in a way that doesn’t feel authentic to me, but requires me to be that way if I want to stay safe or if I want to not be giving my time away to people all of the time or. Right. And that, well, maybe you can just.
Speaker B [00:32:19]: Find a minor switch. Like, for me, I value kindness and acknowledgement. So when we’re at the checkout counter, I will Smile and say hello. Like pleasantries. But I’m not going to ask questions or engage in a conversation.
Speaker A [00:32:36]: What if they start to engage in a conversation with you and ask questions?
Speaker B [00:32:41]: I’ll respond, but I most likely won’t ask questions back. Depending. Depending on the scenario.
Speaker A [00:32:48]: And then if all of a sudden during that conversation they were like, oh, my God, I just feel such a beautiful connection with you. They do. The thing like you’re talking about with the. Oh, my God, you got that at Maurices. I saw that. Right? That. The shirt. If they engage and they’re like, this is going to sound so crazy, but I just feel spiritually we are so freaking connected.
Speaker B [00:33:04]: It has never happened in the history of my life.
Speaker C [00:33:07]: But.
Speaker B [00:33:07]: Okay.
Speaker A [00:33:08]: Do you have an email address or a phone number that you would be willing. This happens to me constantly.
Speaker B [00:33:13]: That’s. That’s.
Speaker A [00:33:14]: But if it did. Yeah, if it did. What’s more important in that moment? You setting the boundary that’s important to you or you not being rude that someone just asked for something from you because they connected with you in some way and they want to continue the conversation?
Speaker C [00:33:34]: You could set. You could still set that boundary and not be rude.
Speaker A [00:33:37]: Like, what. What would that sound like?
Speaker C [00:33:39]: That.
Speaker B [00:33:40]: It.
Speaker C [00:33:41]: I guess it would sound like. That’s really nice of you to say, but I’m really. That’s not really something that I do, you know. Thank you. Have a great day.
Speaker A [00:33:50]: Here’s what I’m getting at. There’s not a chance in hell, Rebecca saying that. Well, nobody’s going to say to me.
Speaker B [00:33:55]: I’d like to continue this conversation.
Speaker A [00:33:57]: You know what? Saying that she’s like, yeah, absolutely. Here’s my email address, and it’s erin Firefly, Bird Sorrow, right8@gmail.com. make sure that you type it incorrectly. Sometimes it goes to the wrong address. She made that shit up right on the spot. And then she got herself out of there and then she’ll never go back to that Hobby lobby ever again.
Speaker B [00:34:19]: I mean, that probably would happen. Or. I. Yeah. Never know. There. What. There are scenarios where I’ve had like a conference and some stuff. I’m not talking cashiers. Like conferences where you might have gone to a session with someone or you had a lunch with someone because you were assigned or whatever, and then there was a connection there. Even then, the likelihood that I would continue that conversation is super slim.
Speaker A [00:34:47]: But you’d give them your contact information and then just not respond or say.
Speaker B [00:34:51]: Yeah, I’m on LinkedIn. Go ahead, look me up. You can contact me through there. And then I don’t ever go on LinkedIn, so I just wouldn’t engage. Or it would depend on what they said to me. I would just pick and choose. It would depend.
Speaker A [00:35:03]: And so that is one of the differences between us, because it feels inauthentic for me to provide anything other than the truthful answer of how they can get a hold of me. That also then makes me vulnerable and susceptible. And I’m mad with the outcome associated with that. But if I was like, oh, yeah, absolutely, connect with me on LinkedIn knowing I never went on LinkedIn, I’d have trouble sleeping for eight days because I would be like, you sent them to this other place and you know, they were looking for you and that, you know, they couldn’t find you. And then that wasn’t. And so that. I don’t know what that is. Is that a defense mechanism or is that a value? Right. And so.
Speaker B [00:35:45]: Well, it must come down to the fact that at the end of the day, you want people to be seen. Therefore that’s a very different lead than I am. I’m just being pleasant and nice. I really don’t care if you were felt seen. So therefore I don’t think we would ever connect. The only reason we would connect is because we might have had a common reason to maybe work together. The likelihood that I’m going to socialize with someone I met at a conference is slim to none.
Speaker A [00:36:18]: But I think it’s even as, as minute as how you say hello and greet someone.
Speaker B [00:36:23]: Oh, it’s very clear.
Speaker A [00:36:25]: Because you will, you will go up to someone at a conference and you will say, hi, nice to meet you. Right? I’m Rebecca. Then you’ll go sit on the other side of the room, right? And I will be like, hi, it’s so nice to meet you.
Speaker B [00:36:39]: Right.
Speaker A [00:36:40]: And then I’ve engaged in a handshake at that point, right? And it’s a double sided handshake. It’s the one where I’ve sandwiched your hand in between both of my hands because I got to make sure that, you know, your hand feels safe in this handshake moment. Right? No, it’s true. And then I’m like.
Speaker B [00:36:58]: Where are you from?
Speaker A [00:37:00]: Have you been to this conference before? Or, you know, whatever. But if I walked in there and was like, hey, how are you? And then sat on the other side, that doesn’t feel genuine to my personality. So I really constantly feel like I’m at this crossroads of be true to yourself and deal with the repercussions. Of other people or fake it and not have to deal with them, which then makes me feel like shit. So it’s really an interesting crossroads, if you will, about establishing what is inappropriate, empathic and caring response that doesn’t make me take people home with me, but also doesn’t make me feel inauthentic. And I’ve not yet perfected that. I don’t know what that’s supposed to look like or. I think you have to.
Speaker B [00:37:54]: Well, I think you have to keep going through the feelings. I think you have to keep going through it, identify it, compare it to how it makes you feel when you do go down that rabbit hole and you’re annoyed. I think it’s. Maybe it’s just trial and maybe this is the neurodivergence component. I don’t know.
Speaker A [00:38:12]: Right. Because I always say when the pain of staying becomes greater than the pain of leaving, that’s when people leave. So is it the case that when the pain of having to tend to everyone’s emotional distraughtness is greater than the pain of not, that’s when I’ll make a change? Is it that same type of scenario? I see little microwaves in which I am changing that, you know, by not engaging and then trying to be okay with that. But that also relates to the inner sense of why am I doing it to begin with?
Speaker B [00:38:50]: So maybe that’s the core. What is it about your inner child that feels the need to be the savior, feels the need to be a certain way or the world won’t be okay.
Speaker A [00:39:02]: And I talked about this two Saturdays ago, and we can end with this because I think this is a massively thought provoking statement for people. We were, after a group meeting, we ended up going to Leaf and Bean. And when we were at Leaf and Bean, what we came to, the determination is that the one thing that we are innately to other people in the world.
Speaker B [00:39:26]: When you say we people, human beings.
Speaker A [00:39:29]: Yes, this is true. I don’t know if you meant that, but we think that it’s true for everyone. Okay? Human beings, the one thing that is important for you, that you will do excessively for other people is the one thing that you never had fulfilled for yourself. So for me, me seeing other people and wanting them to be seen and wanting to see that they matter and wanting to really get at the core of who they are as a person is the one thing that has been unfulfilled for me through a majority of my life, whether I was young, all the way up until probably last week, five minutes ago, mid-20s, early-30s, and still in some places in my life, continue to be massively unseen. And so Nina was identifying. What it was for her, and hers is rather similar to mine, is that she constantly feels the need to make sure that people are okay and know that they are not alone and that they are seen and recognized for who they are, but that there’s always options and that they never have to go through life alone. Well, you look back at Nina’s life, and what is the one thing she needed from early, early on all the way up is she needed someone to say to her, I got you. I’ll be your support person. I’ll help you out of this situation. You’re not alone in this. This is difficult, and I’m here for you. Right. So I would be fascinated to hear from our listeners what is the thing that you do excessively right now for other people, even to your own detriment. That is also related to what you desperately needed when you were younger or at whatever point in your life and have still to this day, not half fulfilled. To round out that conversation. What we realized was I can continue to make other people feel overly seen as much as possible. It’s still not feeling. Filling my past void. She can continue to try and save people, to let them know that they’re not alone. She still recognizes that she was alone her entire early life.
Speaker B [00:41:38]: Yeah. So if the inner child isn’t healed, then there’s no way to change the patterns.
Speaker A [00:41:42]: Exactly. And that comes full circle to what you were talking about with hypnotherapy and with IFS therapy and all these things. We constantly are trying to fulfill the void of what we needed through what we’re giving to other people. And what is that? And at what point do we recognize it doesn’t matter how many people I’ve seen, and it doesn’t matter how many people Nina has saved. It still doesn’t fix little Erin who wasn’t seen. And it still doesn’t fix little Nina that wasn’t saved. That’s crazy. All right. Here is my affirmation card. I know that I will attract everyone and everything aligned with my purpose. I am magnetic.
Speaker B [00:42:33]: And our tarot card is strength, stability. This card shows patience in the face of conflict, you standing your ground rather than being overwhelmed. What opposes you is lower than you are. This may be your own fear, guilt, or other emotions that shake your confidence. Or a person who is acting in an unreasonable way by projecting these emotions onto you. Having compassion while keeping your personal boundaries strong and refusing to be taken advantage of shows the strength of your character. An additional meaning in this card is literal physical strength.
Speaker A [00:43:08]: How is everyone in the world not listening to this podcast at this point? I mean, how are you not on this train? Right? How are you not on this. This train? If you’re listening to this podcast, please share. Please share this podcast with five people who need to hear it in the depths of their soul so that mama don’t have to work anymore. All right?
Speaker C [00:43:33]: Amen.
Speaker B [00:43:34]: I loved that.
Speaker A [00:43:36]: Me too. Isn’t empathy amazing?
Speaker B [00:43:39]: Well, we’re amazing. I don’t know about all this empathy stuff.
Speaker A [00:43:42]: That’s fine. I accept you wherever you are. Oh, God, I love you.
Speaker B [00:43:48]: I love you, too.
Speaker A [00:43:50]: And if you love us, please like and subscribe to more Love the Power of Empathy podcast. Wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker B [00:43:58]: See you next time.
