Episode 123 – “We Cannot Love Them Enough to Change” – Empathy and Narcissism with Stephany Ann

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The bleeding heart and the narcissist are a bad combination… yet somehow they happen to find each other over and over again. After getting the “hippie voo” out of the way, we dive deep into hearing Stephany’s story of two toxic, narcissistic relationships. During this “session” Stephany helps us define covert narcissism, identify narcissists noticeable characteristics, explore reasons why people stay so long, and discuss the cycle of narcissistic abuse. Join in the discussion and share your thoughts on our More Love – Official FB Page or on our YouTube channel @themorelovepodcast.

0:00:09 – Speaker 1
Hey, it’s me, Erin. Thanks for joining us on the More Love podcast. Do not tell Rebecca, but this podcast is about empathy. She likes people to think she’s dead inside, but the truth is she’s a big time feeler who has truly helped me uncover that empathy is my superpower. Here she comes, hey Bestie.
0:00:28 – Speaker 2
Hi love what are you doing?
0:00:31 – Speaker 1
Oh, just getting ready to host a podcast. A podcast About what Life? Our life as best friends who are more like sisters. I love us and I can’t wait to share our stories with the world, Especially the ones that involve us pushing each other right To be our most authentic selves.
0:00:50 – Speaker 2
Oh man Okay.
0:00:56 – Speaker 1
Three hot blondes and Scott today, everybody. Three hot blondes, that’s right, coming at you. We don’t just have Rebecca and Erin today. You are joined by a third party. Yet another guest of the More Love podcast. This is Stephanie. Everyone, hello Stephanie, hi lady, hello ladies, thanks for having me on your show, absolutely.
0:01:20 – Speaker 2
Our session.
0:01:21 – Speaker 1
Our today’s session.
0:01:22 – Speaker 4
People are going to love our session.
0:01:26 – Speaker 1
I’d like to tell you about how I introduced Stephanie to Rebecca this morning. I said to her we’re having a guest on the show today. Rebecca said yep, yep. I sent her the link. I said congratulations. That’s the most she’s done for the podcast in 23 episodes.
0:01:39 – Speaker 2
So a really nice job I did it the day before too Good Wow Yesterday.
0:01:43 – Speaker 1
I’m sure Stephanie wasn’t worried at all Probably not About getting that link Right. But, here you are 10 PM.
0:01:49 – Speaker 2
Rolling in with the link. I can only do what I can do.
0:01:51 – Speaker 1
That’s fine. Yeah, and so I start to tell her a little bit about Stephanie’s really impressive background and a lot of the stuff you’re going to hear today. And what does Rebecca say? I want to see your picture, yep.
0:02:04 – Speaker 2
And then I went to her up on Facebook and I go oh she’s hot, yeah this is good.
0:02:09 – Speaker 1
This is good. Proceeded to go through all the pictures as I’m looking at her being like do you want to hear more about what she’s like? No, no.
0:02:17 – Speaker 4
She’s going to be great.
0:02:19 – Speaker 1
Yep so it’s good Hot Yep.
0:02:21 – Speaker 2
So I really like the pictures.
0:02:22 – Speaker 1
There we are today Three hot blondes and Scott. That’s where we are.
0:02:28 – Speaker 2
0:02:28 – Speaker 4
I feel like we should do more for you, scott.
0:02:30 – Speaker 2
No, that’s okay, I’m fine, I do have some hair in the studio, yeah, you could be a blonde.
0:02:35 – Speaker 1
Yeah, you want some extensions, scott.
0:02:37 – Speaker 4
That would be fun, that would be fun. And then we can go to target together. Oh yes, yes, that’s right. Always a good time, always yeah.
0:02:47 – Speaker 1
Well, here’s the deal.
So, for real, this is actually going to be a much awaited podcast for a lot of our guests, because I have had some people who reach out and say and give us topics for the show, and one of the topics that a lot of people have wanted to know about is can you have someone come on and talk about narcissism and characteristics of people who are narcissistic and how that relates with empathy?
And so there have been. You know, stephanie, a lot of this podcast is about Rebecca being dead inside and me being the most empathic person you could ever possibly meet, and how we approach the life from completely different angles but always find our way back to each other in some weird way. And sometimes people write into the show and will have questions that they want us to talk about again to get the very different perspectives. And again, one of the themes that keeps coming up is this question about narcissism, especially in the realm of empathy, and how do you spot someone who’s narcissistic, how do you keep them at bay? How do you at least in my own personal experience not try to give that person constantly the benefit of the doubt, and when do you know enough?
is enough. So those are some of like the leading questions that we’ll have for today. In terms of narcissism and empathy, I think today is going to be a great, great topic for everyone, and so when I’m starting to talk to Rebecca about the things we’re going to talk about today, and I have her read your bio, stephanie, she’s reading, reading, reading, reading, and what does? What point does she get to? The numerology piece, and that, at that point, is where she’s hooked.
She’s like oh my God, she knows about numerology. That’s the show today. That’s the show, that’s what we’re going to talk about. And I said we need to find a nice balance between the two and because Rebecca just wanted to take over and have you do all the hippie voodoo shit that she likes for people to do, because she does not like to talk about anything.
0:04:49 – Speaker 2
Now, feeling, no feelings. I don’t want to talk about the feeling.
0:04:52 – Speaker 1
So I’ve promised Rebecca we can do both today. So what we’re going to do is sandwich this Okay, we’re going to start with your hippie voodoo card Okay, and your oil and my affirmation card, okay. Then we’re going to do the meat right of talking about narcissism and empathy, and then Stephanie has promised that we will end with some who the heck knows what numerology slash, reading, slash and and on a high note for you.
0:05:21 – Speaker 4
Okay, okay, okay, okay.
0:05:22 – Speaker 1
So let’s start with your crowd. What card? What’s your hippie?
0:05:26 – Speaker 2
voodoo card today. So this one was really calling to me and we haven’t had this one yet. This is the night of swords and it’s a flying unicorn, it’s got a helmet on. It’s a helmet with a with a feather it’s a pink feather, and it’s yielding for that, I know it’s yielding one solid sword Cut a bitch Cut a bitch, cut a bitch, that’s what it’s called. Okay, well, I just named that. Look how cute.
0:05:49 – Speaker 3
He has no teeth.
0:05:51 – Speaker 2
He’s a normal.
0:05:52 – Speaker 3
This is about me. But I grew up drawing forces and then at some point I turned all my horses to unicorns. Stop it. So I’m like the queen of drawing unicorns. I draw them everywhere. It’s my doodle. Love every second of it Sounds about right, my doodle is a pig Sparkling.
0:06:11 – Speaker 1
I know that’s great. And you’re sparkly. Yeah, look at how this is all coming together.
0:06:15 – Speaker 2
I love that, I love that Okay. So remember last time.
0:06:19 – Speaker 1
my doodle is a pig it is?
0:06:21 – Speaker 2
It’s always a pig, always. I’m really good at pigs. What’s your doodle? A star Is it? I always do stars. You know what my husband says A cigarette, a middle finger. It’s a middle finger, the S.
0:06:32 – Speaker 1
It’s a middle finger S for you, the three lines, and then you do like little stupid connections with the triangles that top.
0:06:39 – Speaker 2
No, his is a middle finger and your husband’s is a penis, so it is I know.
0:06:44 – Speaker 1
I know it absolutely is.
0:06:47 – Speaker 4
Idiots, idiots Anyway.
0:06:50 – Speaker 2
So so we learned last time that swords are thought and mental energy Right.
0:06:57 – Speaker 1
You always pull the sword. I always pull a sword, always, always.
0:06:59 – Speaker 2
So I pulled this sword. And this is so interesting. Are you ready? Yeah, knight of swords. Masculine energy.
0:07:07 – Speaker 1
0:07:09 – Speaker 2
Well, because the knight is a man, right, I don’t know. New endeavors are near. This zealous knight appears Hip, hip, hooray-ish, Enthusiastic to the point of obsession. He races towards his goals with no regret for petty concerns like danger or anyone else’s feelings. You might call him the cokehead of the tarot deck, and though he has his upsides passion, compassion, drive he warns against some downsides ignorance, arrogance and sloppy work. So learn from this guy’s mistakes and stay excited, but we willing to exercise some caution, humility and patience. Oh, and skip the coke. It’s unbecoming of a knight.
0:07:44 – Speaker 1
Oh my God, these cards are too much, I love every second of these.
0:07:48 – Speaker 2
They’re too much. So here’s the affirmation my excitement is welcomed and celebrated, but when it spills over, I mop it up so no one slips. See, it’s empathy, it’s totally me. It’s totally me all day long.
0:08:01 – Speaker 1
Except you don’t realize when you push it over the edge. And I’m the one there with a stupid ass mop. Well, that’s.
0:08:08 – Speaker 2
I know Well, I’m like.
0:08:08 – Speaker 1
Oh no, no, I’m not that we’re mopping that. We’re mopping that You’re like why? Why, I don’t understand. I’m still rubbing my orange rock over here.
0:08:17 – Speaker 2
Well, I know I burned myself on the. You want to give me some of that oil? Yeah, but this hurts. Look at, I know I burned myself in the incense today. Is that a sign? Probably, I know. Now I need you to be careful with this because it’s leaking. I don’t know why the ball thing is pushed in. I don’t know. This is the orange chakra for creativity. Okay, did you see what we picked? Oh, yeah, you know. And what’s interesting is I made a decision last week to start my own business.
0:08:46 – Speaker 1
Yeah, yes, she did folks and guys, wait, though. When she told me the name of the business, this is what I did. I said what’s the name of the business? Wait a minute, Let me close my eyes and do this, just in case I really hate it. Then you can’t see the look on my face. I was very clear when you had zero reaction, and so I went like this, and then you told me the name, and what did I do?
0:09:04 – Speaker 2
You kept doing that, and then we moved on to a different time.
0:09:09 – Speaker 1
That is empathy, which is completely fine. Yeah, I didn’t care. Nope, just like normal, I tell you things all the time that I don’t think that’s great and you don’t care, nope, you just keep doing it anyway.
0:09:19 – Speaker 2
I am still doing it. I created my logo and I told you it was coming all sorts of out.
0:09:24 – Speaker 1
That’s what she said here. Oh my God, you’re an idiot. Here we go, stephanie, and putting some on you.
0:09:31 – Speaker 3
Thank you. This is a good one, all the energy and vibes.
0:09:35 – Speaker 1
Do you feel it all? I’m smelling it.
0:09:37 – Speaker 3
I’m smelling it.
0:09:39 – Speaker 1
Oh are you? It’s orangey, it’s very citrusy, it’s orange.
0:09:42 – Speaker 2
You know what? It’s a mixture of citrus and self tan, because I just had a. I have a self tan around, nope.
0:09:47 – Speaker 1
It’s a mixture of citrus and instant oil change.
0:09:50 – Speaker 4
I’m glad it doesn’t smell like a 1979 holiday in, like the last one, oh no that’s Poundtown.
0:09:56 – Speaker 2
That’s the root one, that’s the cherries. Oh, it’s this one.
0:10:00 – Speaker 1
This one. Okay, this is it. Okay, here’s my affirmation card. I am on my own path. I know that comparing myself to others only derails me from my purpose.
0:10:11 – Speaker 2
Thank you. That’s why I don’t give a shit if you don’t like the name of my business.
0:10:19 – Speaker 1
Yes, this is your card. I know this is your card. Good, I know that comparing myself to others only derails me from my purpose. I am on my own path. This is also a good card for me because it’s black. You know we’re going live. I know we’re going live. You guys, we’re taking it’s already.
0:10:38 – Speaker 2
No, it’s not. This is gonna air before we go live. Yeah, are you sure?
0:10:42 – Speaker 1
Yes, okay, I love the confidence that you have when you don’t know shit about what’s happening with the podcast. You showed up an hour early today. I know you forced me here an hour early today, I know I know. But yeah, I’m all set, I got this. Are you sure I got this? We’re usually like four weeks behind. We’re going live Everybody.
0:11:01 – Speaker 4
Yes, december 29th, this episode will be dropped the week before we go live actually.
0:11:05 – Speaker 2
Wow so everybody next week next week next week Friday, not a Thursday Friday.
0:11:12 – Speaker 1
Friday lunch hour. Friday lunch hour, 12 o’clock. We’re going live First live performance of more love, and I’m going to give you a real hint here. It’s the same thing you’re listening to right now.
0:11:21 – Speaker 2
Also, I will be one year older than Aaron, yes, so brace yourself for that. One year older than.
0:11:30 – Speaker 1
Aaron. But what we’re going to talk about is basically we have a whole lineup prepared for Friday the 29th, when we go live where we are ringing out the new year or ringing out the old year, bring in in the new year where we’re going to basically dive into all of the things we’re letting go of and why I really like this card. The I am on my own path is one of my learnings from 2023 was that I need to have confidence and awareness of the fact that just because I get anxious and freak out doesn’t mean that I need to then give my power away to everyone else to be making decisions. That it is okay for me to sit in my own light, to make my own decisions and to not have to take on the energy around me when making decisions, because I am on my own path, and so I’m really harnessing that for 2024. So that card is also about me.
I love that as well, love it All right. Is that the hippie-boo so far for today? You feel good about that. I feel great, okay, fantastic. Now it’s into the ham, into the meat, ew.
0:12:36 – Speaker 3
Ham sounds so little black, ham sounds so little black, ham doodles.
0:12:39 – Speaker 2
Oh, my God, I’m going to draw one. I’m going to draw one right now. Go ahead, it’s your little.
0:12:45 – Speaker 1
A little hammer, your little ham doodles Ew, so gross, I know, ew. Okay, go ahead, I love it, very excited. So, as I said, stephanie, I think people are going to be really excited about talking about today. I think they’re going to be eager to hear your story eerie, eerie eager to hear really what quote unquote qualifies you to talk about this topic. And I think your experiences and things that you’re going to get into are definitely things that people are going to be able to relate to. And, as I said before, a lot of people who listen and tune into this podcast are really empathic, caring, loving, sort of bleeding heart kind of people who are trying to figure out best ways to still harness that part about themselves that they love without also being taken advantage by other people. And the narcissist in my mind is someone who is keenly aware of those people, finds those people, goes all in on those people and then uses those people for Do you think it’s deliberate, like intentional?
Absolutely. Yeah, I don’t think they’re always keenly aware, but I think that there’s something about the narcissist that pulls them toward people who exude this sense of unconditional love and caring and I’m all about you, Let me give to you, Let me show you how you’re important and valuable. And so I don’t always think it’s necessarily intentional. Ooh like I spot this person out, but there’s something about a really empathic person that gets exuded that people feel really close to, and the narcissist loves that that person is going to spotlight them in a majority of what they do. Your thoughts on that, Stephanie? Do you think it’s intentional?
0:14:40 – Speaker 3
No, I. So many people would say, oh, your exes are so psycho and, like now, they’re not psycho, they have a disordered personality, but they know exactly what they’re doing. Are they consciously aware 100% of the time what they’re doing? No, because I think some of it is just through habit of what they do. But they know what they are doing, they have everything planned. They’re cool, calm, calculated and they know. So. I never say, oh they’re crazy, oh they’re psychopaths. No, they’re in control and they are in control of you. They’re in control of your emotions, they’re in control of your reactions, and that is where they want to be.
0:15:24 – Speaker 2
And that is why they want to keep you, and that is why they’re dangerous.
0:15:26 – Speaker 4
0:15:27 – Speaker 2
0:15:27 – Speaker 1
I so agree with that. I love it I want to give you the stage, stephanie, to tell us about your experience, your story. I think it’ll be important for our listeners to know a little bit about who you are, what your journey has been, and then let’s dive into this topic of narcissism and empathy.
0:15:46 – Speaker 3
So tell us about you, yeah, yeah. So I found myself on the bathroom floor just crying and going god, why me? Why is all this stuff happening to me? God, what did I do wrong? Or why me? I’m a good person, I did nothing wrong. I don’t deserve this. Nobody deserves this.
Yet in that moment I couldn’t see past the pain and the suffering that had engulfed my life for so many years. I spent over 17 years within the shooting, narcissistic abuse of marriages, and here I did not know that I was in that. My background is in domestic violence, my background is in law, but yet here I am in an abusive marriage that I did not know was abusive. And so so many people that I’ve spoken with both men because it does happen to men and women find themselves in these toxic relationships, but we don’t always know what is happening, and it’s not until we step outside of it and get a clear picture, because it doesn’t always fit the traditional cycle of domestic violence. And here again, my background is in domestic violence. I actually won the governor’s award. It is a award offered to one person once a year and I won it for my work with victims and survivors of domestic violence. And yet when I look back at when I was in the middle of it, I didn’t know my first husband. He was a covert narcissist, and a covert narcissist is, if we just define some terms here. So if you all remember back in the day studying mythology I think it was a requirement when I was in middle school a narcissist was this man who fell in love with his reflection and he never left. He died in that pool just staring at himself.
And so narcissists have this deep need for excessive admiration and attention. They have this grandiose sense of self-importance. They’re preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited power, success, beauty, wealth, and they believe that one is special and can only be understood by special people. And I think this is where they bring in the empaths. Only an empath can understand me, or they just make you feel like you are the only person who understands them. They have this constant need for excessive admiration, sense of entitlement. But the thing is that they will exploit you, they will manipulate you, they will do anything they can to get what they want, and they lack that empathy, so it doesn’t matter. They just don’t care how they will hurt you. They don’t care, they will use you. They’re arrogant, a shoddy behavior. They’re envious of others because they think other people are envious of them. And it’s just this.
Psychological and emotional abuse is what you find yourself in if you are in a relationship with a narcissist, with a person with a disordered personality. And then we have the cycle of abuse. And so in traditional I even hate saying that traditional domestic violence, you have the cycle of domestic violence abuse. But what makes abuse like narcissistic abuse so different, yet so similar, is that they have a cycle as well, and it is more emotional and psychological abuse.
There’s a lot of manipulation, a lot of gaslighting, and for any of you who don’t know what gaslighting is, gaslighting is when they try to alter your perception of reality. So, for instance, say, you got an argument last night with your partner and the next morning you bring it up. Hey, when we were having this discussion, this argument last night, you said these things and this is how it made me feel. In a healthy relationship, you would work that through that and talk about it and move on. But in a relationship with a narcissist who is gaslighting, they would say that didn’t happen, like that. You are too sensitive, you’re taking things too personally, you’re full of shit. That just didn’t happen.
0:20:39 – Speaker 1
They might also say something like well, I responded to you in that way because you said this, this and this, and so it’s like the. I don’t have to take personal accountability for the fact that I responded in that way to you. It’s also because you triggered me in this way. You said this. You know that that’s a problem for me. There’s a lot of that push off of it’s because of you that I responded. There’s not a lot of personal accountability in the mind of a narcissist.
0:21:16 – Speaker 3
There is zero accountability and they ship all the blame onto you, they shift everything onto you. Well, you got in my face, you said this. But with this disordered personality is they want a reaction, because when they get a reaction from you, they have controlled you, they have controlled your emotions. Now you feel bad about yourself, now you’re self-shitty, now you feel terrible and they feel great because they have just controlled you. And if you look at what all this, the whole overarching of all of this, is power and control. And so if they can control the way you react, because you find yourself, and you find yourself no longer responding, you are just in reactive mode.
0:22:18 – Speaker 1
Yep. How much time do you spend, or did you spend, in the trying to understand why this person is the way that they are and to understand the trauma or the experiences that led them to be in this place? Did you spend a lot of time in that place at any point?
0:22:49 – Speaker 3
You know, I feel like understanding the disordered personality when you are, when you finally have the words to define what you went through is important for healing. So I didn’t know I was into narcissistic marriages until I left my second husband and then I looked back on everything and it was like, holy, ok, this is what it was. And we would throw words around like, ok, there’s some sort of I knew there was a disordered personality between my two husbands. I didn’t know exactly what it was, which is kind of I don’t not funny. But my first husband his dad is a psychiatrist and my mom was a psych nurse said and so you know, we’re just talking about these things and. But once I finally saw narcissism and I saw that everything they did lined up with this, then I wanted to go and explore well, what is narcissism? What does it mean to have this sort of disorder personality?
But at some point you can’t just spend all your time thinking about the disorder, thinking about how could we change them, what all happened to them, because, honestly, we need to focus on us, and this is what I tell clients, this is what I tell people that I work with Focus on you. We cannot change them, we cannot love them enough to change. And you know, again, that’s where we are empathetic. We think that if we continue to stay, well, maybe if I change this about you, maybe if I do this about you, maybe if I do this, then they will change. But they won’t change and nobody, we cannot make anybody change. That has to be their own decision. They need to go, do all to do healing work and work on themselves. So understand the disorder and then move on. Focus on you, not on them.
0:24:54 – Speaker 2
So what was the? You said that you got out of the relationships prior to realizing that they were narcissists. What was it that made you decide to leave the relationship?
0:25:07 – Speaker 3
So my first husband I was with for 14 years and he had multiple affairs over time. So again, when you think about being with a narcissist, they have this excessive need for admiration. So in the beginning of the relationship you know you can have all this time with this person, you can pour into them and stuff and give them what you wanted. When I went off to law school, he no, I no longer had time to focus all my attention on him and that is when he went to go seek validation and admiration and an adoration from other women and so many people would say to well, is it just hot women, is it this or that? It’s like no, it’s any person it says, any woman, who would just feed that that constant meat.
And so I stayed with him for a very long time because, again, I don’t know about you two, but people that I’ve worked with and in my circles it’s like we have cheaters over here and we have abuse over here, so he’s just a cheater. So I didn’t realize. I didn’t put the two together until later when it was like no, it’s abuse. How many times did you tell them to stop? How many times did you say this is how it is affecting. Stop doing this. And he never did it’s abuse. It’s, you know, emotional, psychological abuse. Yes, he was not physically violent, but he was emotionally and psychologically abusive.
0:26:53 – Speaker 2
I think that’s a really good point because often times we define just like with depression or anxiety, find it a very specific way. Therefore, if you’re not experiencing those symptoms quote unquote or experiences, then you must not be in that situation or have those things right Right, when the reality is that the spectrum right, everything’s the spectrum.
0:27:17 – Speaker 1
This is where part of this challenge comes in for me, though, because when I was going through my psych training, and we would do abnormal, psychology was the one of the classes that I took loved that class, but we would talk about narcissism, and the percentage of people at that time known to have been diagnosed with narcissism or a similar type personality disorder was incredibly low, really, really really low right.
And so you. I was under the impression that, one, there weren’t a ton of people like this in the world. Two, they were really easy to spot because they were people who were so grandiose in their expression that you would walk around and you’d be like I don’t want anything to do with that person, Right, that person is just way too full of themselves and in addition to that that they they lacked so much empathy that they tended to go on to other stages of disease, right, and mental health concerns that you would know that you would be able to see a million miles away, right, conduct disorder was the same way. So I remember thinking oh boy, if you’re diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder and then conduct disorder, your next step after that is you’re going to be a sociopath, right. Then I’m in one of my internship settings and I’m meeting with a kid who lights, fires and gets diagnosed with conduct disorder, and I’m thinking to myself, oh, this isn’t good. You know, I’m meeting with XYZ’s next sociopath, right. But in my mind, all of these conditions were for very select people in the population who were really not your mainstream, right.
And then we start to see, over the course of the last however many years that I’m hearing more about narcissism and personality disorders and different things coming up that are much more mainstream. I think there’s even a book that’s called the sociopath next door and it talks about like one in four or something are legit narcissistic sociopaths. That’s that’s. We’re not leaving the house for the rest of the year. That’s. It’s scary, right. So there’s a fine line for me between, as we become more aware of this, we have to be really careful about who we are diagnosing and who we are claiming has met this particular criteria or, before you know it, everyone you meet is a narcissist, right.
But also drawing awareness to the fact that it’s not just the one half of a percent that we used to think it was when I was an abnormal psych, that this is happening more, and how that plays into these criteria that we’re talking about that are really not okay behaviors but that we become blind to because we just assume there’s a certain level of normalcy in human behavior. That’s like. That’s like how do you know when we’ve crossed over from you’re just the kind of person that’s a pain in the ass full of themselves to full blown narcissistic personality disorder and I gotta, I gotta be out of here, right. That’s a really hard place for me to be. I wonder if other people feel that same way. But it’s not so cut and dry for me about, and especially when you’re in that type of relationship, at what point. It’s not like one thing happens, right. It’s not like you’re going to birth your child and your husband happens to not be there because the bills are playing right, I mean at that point.
I don’t know you might be. It might be the type of person who’s like I can understand, the bills are great, right, I don’t know. But it’s not like one thing happens. You might be able to speak to this to Stephanie, because if it wasn’t be a whole lot easier, she stayed for 14 years right In a situation. This man was the same narcissist the entire time. But they’re so fricking manipulative and what they are doing and so good about what they are doing that you don’t even realize it until it’s just upon you and then you’re like what the heck is going on here? I struggle with that, with that part, yeah no, I completely I feel the same way.
0:31:40 – Speaker 3
You know, my first husband was actually diagnosed as oppositional defiant when he was a child and when you have like oppositional defiant, as you know, that can transfer into adulthood as some other disordered personality and so for him that was that thing. But you know to to address that, is narcissism more prevalent, prevalent Now. You know. One of my thoughts on it is one we’re talking about it more but two, you know, think of it like you know, when you buy a new car to say I just buy this new, I don’t know, white, white Honda Civic, and before I never saw a Honda Civic. Now I see Honda Civics everywhere because I own one.
0:32:32 – Speaker 2
Yeah, that’s at the point.
0:32:34 – Speaker 3
And so you know, now that I’ve been in a relationship with a narcissist, I see narcissists everywhere, where before I really got into understanding narcissism, I didn’t really see them anywhere because I wasn’t looking for them or it wasn’t just admin my like subconscious mind where I’m seeing them. So I think, because there’s more awareness, we’re talking about it more, we’re just seeing it more. That’s kind of my, my take on it. And then the the other, oh, go ahead.
0:33:11 – Speaker 2
No, no, no, you can say some, I can follow up after.
0:33:15 – Speaker 3
Go ahead and the the other thing, too, is that you know why do we stay so long? Why are we? Why are we in these relationships? So what usually happens, if you look at the cycle of narcissistic abuse, the first stage is the idealization stage and then there’s the devaluation stage and on the discard. So what happens in the idealization stage is you’re getting to know this person. They put you high up on this pedestal and my friends used to say, oh gosh, stephanie, every guy you ever date just put you way up here. You’re this like queen that they worship. And when it’s happening, it’s like, oh yeah, that feels really good. I mean, gosh, yeah, these guys love me, they treat me very well, they’re very kind to me, they love everything about you. You know they bring up words like you’re my soulmate.
And here I am, you know, a neurologist. I believe all of the spiritual stuff. I’ve manifested my second husband. I wrote a list I he checked up everything on the list and so you know, I manifested him. So when he said you’re my soulmate, I believe that yeah, and and everything was wonderful and great, and tell the devaluation phase.
And then it’s like, oh, I hate lawyers, I hate everything about the law, all your girlfriends, all my very strong, independent, powerful women, friends oh, all your friends are. You know he just started being so negative and putting all my friends down, criticizing, manipulating, all this stuff, and it was like, wait a second. And this is where it gets all that cognitive dissonance. Because you’re like I, you were just so kind and you loved everything about me, and now everything, you don’t like anything about me, and so, but then they will, then the next day or days later, then they’re just so kind again, and so you know, you, you, you don’t understand what’s going on and they keep you in this intermittent reinforcement of of good and bad, good and bad. And so this is what keeps us stuck in the cycle and this is what creates a trauma bond, which is why a relationship with a disorder personality like narcissism is so hard to believe. It is so hard to break up because you have now had this trauma bond with this person. You love them, you hate them, you miss them, you don’t want to be with them. You, you know there’s all these polarities of emotions and it’s so hard because you’re like, well, it’s, it’s bad right now, but I know it’s going to be good in a couple of days I can wade out the bad because it’s going to be good.
And this is what keeps us addicted, this is what keeps us hooked and this is what keeps us stuck in these abusive relationships. And I always like to say it as like think of a drug addiction when a user uses for the first time, they reach this super high dopamine bubble that’s so high. So then they use again because they want that euphoric feeling, they want that high. But every time they use they can never get that peak high again. But they keep using and using and using because they in their brain is like well, I know, maybe if I, if I just keep doing it, one time, it will reach that high peak.
And so, similarly with being in a trauma bonded relationship, we know that they know how to love us. We know that they know how to be kind to us. We know that they know how to treat us the way we want to be treated. So when it is bad we hold out, waiting for that first love, that idealization phase, to come back, because we know it’s there, we know that they are capable of loving us. But the truth is it’s all false, it’s not real, none of it’s real, because their sense of love is based on just excessive admiration. It is based on, I don’t know, lust, or just you know, it’s just not love.
0:37:49 – Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, it’s. And when and at least in my own experiences, when you’re someone like me who I don’t feel like I need a whole lot, I feel like I need base love, care. I like when people I’m an acts of service person, right? So something as small as you bring me a cup of tea in the morning and I can be in hook line and sinker again right, which is one of my my weaknesses, because I think that negativity can happen, and then you’re holding out for something different to happen, and then you know that the bar doesn’t have to be really high in order for that person to come back in right, because you could do these really atrocious things. And then if you’re like, oh my gosh, I’m so sorry about that, let me do these things to make you feel better, and when you’re someone like me that that bar is really low, it’s easy for that person to just keep coming back in and starting that cycle over again, and I’ve struggled with that because I think to myself that that’s an empathy problem, that it’s, you know, gosh.
I know that I deserve a lot more than that, but I also don’t think a lot of us, particularly as women, have experienced the healthiness of what that looks like consistently with a male specifically right, Because you and I talk all the time. God, if we were married, we’d just be great.
We just have this great, nice little relationship and we would healthily argue and everything would be wonderful, right? I don’t know what that looks like in a male-female relationship. So, because that’s never been the bar that has been set for me, it’s been set for me with you. But if that had been set for me in a male relationship, I think I would know really quickly. You can take that tea and shove it, because that’s not.
0:39:55 – Speaker 2
You know, I don’t give a shit about your tea right At the end of the day, that’s not really what it is no right, but it’s just this baseline almost.
0:40:02 – Speaker 1
In some senses, if I really get into it, it’s like God. It’s just so much easier when we’re in a place where you’re acting quote unquote normal and you’re being nice to me and you’re not making my life a living hell and I can manage the rest of what’s going on in life because I really don’t need a whole lot. But just keep it cool, man.
0:40:22 – Speaker 2
Just keep it cool. You want to keep it cool.
0:40:24 – Speaker 1
I don’t need much from you right, but then I struggle with well, why is that the bar Right Like? Why is that just enough for us to be in these relationships where we’re like great, so he wasn’t a complete asshole to me today, Good for me. That’s really great, right, and I think that’s also a part of this journey. When we talk about abuse, when we talk about narcissism, when we talk about you know, God, you’re a really educated woman, both as an attorney and as someone who focuses on domestic violence and we’re into abusive relationships, right, and God, it doesn’t get me more educated and aware than that, right? What does that mean for everybody else? Who hasn’t studied this? Who hasn’t? Right, I have a PhD in mental health, right. I also have found myself in these types of relationships where I struggle with discerning between when it’s appropriate to leave versus when we keep giving another chance. Right, what does that mean for everybody else?
0:41:33 – Speaker 3
It’s very challenging and that’s you know. This is one of the misconceptions and the myths out there is that they only go for you know, easily manipulate, to manipulated people they go from, for people who came from wrecked backgrounds, who are more susceptible to trauma, drama and chaos. You know, my parents are still married. I came from a great family, modeled healthy relationships. My first husband, his parents, are still married. In fact, when he left me, he left for another married woman. He disowned his parents because his parents would not give divorce to me. His parents are like no, we love Stephanie, we’re keeping her and we love you too. You can be a part of our life if you would like to. And he chose to disown his parents because they kept a relationship with me. So you know, my background is, yeah, like I said, I did everything right and yet here I was, also in his relationships. It’s because it reaps up on you, you don’t know.
You know, when I manifested my second husband, so I made the list, I felt like I was healed from the first marriage and I was ready to date again. We met online, but I made the list. You know we’ll make lists right, and so I had it. I was a divorced dad, only with boys, because I only have boys. A businessman, because my first husband was medical. Medical chiefs were not going there. You know, that was my mindset then, you know. So I had a very detailed, specific list tall, dark, handsome. I wanted the good looking guy and I threw that out there to the universe. A week later I met the man who fit every single thing on my buck, and I always like to say you know, the universe and all the universe’s greatness and wirefulness gave me exactly what I wanted. But also with all the unhealed, unlearned lessons from my first marriage. Because here’s the thing if we don’t learn those lessons, we will continue to repeat the same patterns over and over again. And you hear people say, well, why is this happening to me? Why do I keep doing this? Well, you continue to repeat the patterns until you break that cycle within you. And so you know, I got all of that.
And then I thought I was doing everything right again, because I’m like, okay, we’ve met online. I’m like, let’s just three hours away, like let’s not meet, let’s just really get to know each other, because I didn’t want to have a relationship that started out as a physical relationship I really wanted to build some depth and get to know this person. Well, here’s the hard part how do we know? I didn’t meet his friends, I didn’t meet his parents. We talked for about three months and within those three months, I fell in love with him.
Because that is what they, that is their number one goal to get you hooked, stepping outside of all that. I can see, wow, he just mirrored me and I fell in love with myself and I fell in love with his potential. That never went anywhere. So you know, yeah, it can happen to anyone. It doesn’t matter if you’re, you have a PhD, I have a doctorate, I have my backgrounds in the master, violence and all this stuff. It can happen to the girl next door. You know, it doesn’t have all those things. It doesn’t. It can happen to anyone and that’s what’s scary in this world.
0:45:29 – Speaker 1
That is what’s scary. I have some questions related to signs to look for as well as what do we do if we find ourselves in one of these relationships. But you also had had a question Is it still relevant?
0:45:42 – Speaker 2
It wasn’t really a question, it was. I always talk about how society has shifted from how you and I were raised to how the world is raising youth these days. And I question if we’re breeding little narcissists because oh, I agree, I can’t stand it. I just can’t the fact that you know people, the entitlement, comes from the fact that when they were little, they were told you’re the best, you’re this, you’re that, and you know everybody deserves to win. That is such bullshit. I’m sorry. There’s winners and there’s non-winners. They’re called losers and it’s okay. It’s okay to do that and it’s okay to be told no and it’s okay to be told yeah, nope, it’s not gonna happen.
And I think that that is a major problem and, as you know, you learn these foundations when you’re a little child and as you grow up you’re confused. So when you’re being reinforced with these ways of life through your formative years, all of a sudden you get into the real world and you’re all sorts of confused. I got a real problem with that. Sorry, just had to say it. So at the same time, you can look at all these signs and look at all these things. At the end of the day, are they really narcissists or do they just not know any better, because nobody told them Stop being an asshole?
0:47:15 – Speaker 4
Well, do you think that there are, like some people are predisposed to becoming narcissists, but if they’re raised in the right way, or is it something that you can’t avoid?
0:47:28 – Speaker 1
That’s a good question. The school of thought on that I’m not saying if this is right or wrong is that narcissism comes from one of two places extreme trauma that has not been appropriately worked through, or genetic disposition to narcissism. And the correction rate, if you will, of both of those cases meaning how many people have the ability to change is under 5% for both. So it doesn’t matter if it’s massive trauma environment mixed with genetic predisposition, or if it’s genetic predisposition in a great environment. The reality is and this is really hard for me to wrap my mind around as someone who is ruthless in her fight to help people be the best aversion of themselves that they can be that the amount of time, effort, energy and commitment that it takes to change someone who has a narcissistic personality is immense. It is incredible. Now most people hear that and think that’s a lot of work and you know what. I might as well just cut my losses and move on.
Not me. This is where I’m an asshole. I’m like I’m sorry you’re ill, you got 5%. You want to know who’s real good at working in the 5% Me. And then when I get that, when I’ve changed it at the end of 5% right, because I’m so confident that we’ll be able to get there I’m beaten and bruised and battered and I have no mental health left and I’m depressed and whatever. But I made you a really great person who kind of sort of understood your narcissism a little bit more and I feel really great about myself. But I’ve spent 30 years doing that and I am not getting much out of that relationship otherwise right. But boy have I proven to myself that I’m that woman who can change that 5% narcissist right? That’s ill, real clear, it’s ill. I can’t stop it. I struggle with it. I’m working on it.
0:49:34 – Speaker 2
Well, the more you acknowledge it and the more that you embrace that, the more that you can see it.
0:49:40 – Speaker 1
For me, it starts with the understanding of this person that you are with as a narcissist, and I struggle with that. I struggle with that for the same reasons. We talked about Stephanie that in my mind, the number of people in the world who are truly, truly narcissistic is both so over and in your face and also such a small number. I don’t think either of those are true, but I can’t wrap my head around that. And then, as we’ve talked about many times in this podcast, I’m a formulaic person, right, I did the same thing Stephanie did. I created a list I still have it Of all of the characteristics I wanted in the person that I would ultimately end up with. I still have it, I still know where it is in my house, and when I met those potential partners, I would go through with my pen and I’d check it off, because why? There’s the formula?
Well, I did a before I knew you, right, renee and I were on a cruise when I did this and I was dating someone at the time who did not meet those criteria broke up with them as soon as we got back. So I got my criteria and I was like I’m doing this in a nice, safe, comfortable space, while I’m relaxed and on vacation, right, I’m really able to get in touch with those qualities that I really want out of this particular person. And then when I finally meet him, slash, manifest him, right, stephanie. Then I’m going to know, because I’m going to sit down with my stupid ass, pink felt pen and I’m going to boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. And then, when all of those 26 criteria is probably closer to 68, just so we’re clear have been met minus two. Statistically, that’s still good odds.
0:51:19 – Speaker 2
Are we real clear that the things you’re manifesting aren’t really things you want?
0:51:22 – Speaker 1
I didn’t even know the word manifest was at that time.
0:51:25 – Speaker 2
But the list you’re creating are not really things you want.
0:51:28 – Speaker 1
I don’t think I knew enough at that time in my late twenties right To know what that was, but at the time I was manifesting exactly what I thought, what you thought you wanted. It was things like really great dad who engages beautifully with his children and would go to the ends of the earth for them right, it was things like has a really stable job and is able to financially support us should something go wrong in our marriage.
Is not at all interested in overdoing drugs and alcohol, right, like these are the things that are on the list. I still feel great about that. Those all sound really great, right. But I went through formulaically and I checked off all of those things and I was like, good, good, the stats are in my favor, right, this is fabulous.
0:52:15 – Speaker 4
And, as we talked about, you’ve got a couple Mid-dollars, ever being your favorite, right right, as we talked about.
0:52:21 – Speaker 1
Then I get really effing confused when that’s not the outcome, because I did all of the things I was supposed to do. I left the bad relationships, I did the formulaic right. I was even unbiased because I wasn’t even with someone when I was putting it together right. But to your point, Stephanie, about the mirroring in these relationships, the narcissist is going to be exactly who you need them to be you say you want to have two children.
And they say I’m totally open to having two children. They don’t say I want two children, right. But what we hear is oh my God, look how open-minded he is about wanting to have these children with me. I say I don’t want someone who travels constantly for work, right? And the answer is that won’t be a problem in the next year because I’ll be in such a place of financial stability after all the work that I’ve done in all of this time that it’ll be my commitment to want to be home more often than not, right? And what do I hear? We’re on the same page, buddy. We’re still. Yep, yep, we got this right, so now you take gosh.
There can’t be a lot of narcissists in the world because it’s such a small percent of the population Mixed with. I did the formula, things I was supposed to do to put all the ingredients in, to get the fully baked cake at the end, to then get the fully baked cake that they do for years. This isn’t like you get in marriages with these people and they’re like that for two weeks. They’re like that for years. They do the wooing, they do the. Oh my God, I’m a really great dad. I’m gonna be the person that you are, until something happens, whether that’s they feel emasculated, they feel like they can’t hold up there into the bargain.
They somehow get re-triggered because of whatever trauma, and then things start to happen here or there. And what do we talk that up as that’s a normal part of every healthy marriage. We’re going through the stuff right. It’s hard, it’s difficult, but every marriage gets rocky. It is not until 10 years into that relationship that you look back and you’re like what the hell have I gotten out of this relationship in eight years compared to what I have put into this and then, at that moment, you would hope that you were in a place where you were like, well, hot damn, thank God, I know it time to go, but what happens?
I don’t know if this happened for you, stephanie. What happens is you’re like whoa, I’m confused. How did we get here? I’m too smart for this to have happened to me.
0:54:54 – Speaker 4
What did I do wrong?
0:54:56 – Speaker 1
I’m too educated in this realm to have been someone who fell victim to it. Oh my God, I have a child with this person. Oh my God, I’m so confused about how I’ve had the wool pulled over my eyes. And then you have this crisis of identity. Am I not the person that I thought I was? I did the things I was supposed to do, right?
All of this is so much a part of the process of being with someone who is narcissistic, why it’s not just so easy to say that’s why you stayed for 14 years, right, stephanie? It’s not just so easy to say Ooh, yikes, this is not it.
So many of those things are intertwined, and whether it’s your mother-in-law who’s the narcissist, whether it’s your partner, it doesn’t matter who the marriage is you are in some way, shape or form, intertwined with this person to such a point that your own personal stuff mixed with who they are and at the same time, while you’re going through this, they realize you’re going through this. And so what do they do? Amp it up. They turn it the fuck on. Yep, amp it up. Now. They are partner of the year, mother-in-law of the year, best friend of the year, right? And what does that do? That’s called gaslighting, right? You’re like, oh, oh, I’m so, it’s just a rough patch. Oh, ok, it was just a rough patch. And it was a rough patch because, god, I couldn’t have been that wrong, I couldn’t have been that way off about all of this stuff Until what happens? The next dip happens, and then you’ve learned a little bit more in that next dip.
0:56:26 – Speaker 2
That may not be next week. No, may not be next year. No, could be six weeks later.
0:56:31 – Speaker 1
Could be a month later, right. Could be a year later, Could be a week later for a shortened period of time, and then they get it back together again, right. And so you are, at least in my experience, so openly susceptible to all of this happen, even more so when you are the type of person that the narcissist is coming after. Why? Because they know that you’re that human. They know you won’t give up on them. They know that when you do give up on them, they’re going to make you feel so guilty about being the person who gives up on people. They’re going to say things like I have nothing if I don’t have you.
You’ve maneuvered this whole entire situation to now. You have everything and I have what. At the end of the day, I can’t think of one human being, even you, even though I would like to joke at this moment about the fact that you’d be the one to be like well me, oh, you got nothing. Yeah, maybe you shouldn’t have been a asshole, right? Who doesn’t hear that and think to themselves oh my god, did I do that? It’s a fricking roller coaster.
0:57:32 – Speaker 2
It’s a mind fuck.
0:57:33 – Speaker 1
It’s a massive mind fuck.
0:57:34 – Speaker 3
It is Massive, a mind fuck Massive.
0:57:37 – Speaker 1
It really is. And that’s the part, stephanie, that in our last few minutes, before we get to the quick numerology because I know we got to end on your high note here could you leave our listeners with just some basic information about what do you do? What are the steps that people who find themselves in these types of relationships need to do or need to take in order to start the process of recognizing, potentially moving on doing something different? I really hope that that’s your son. I really hope it is.
0:58:11 – Speaker 3
I hope he shows up on camera. He’s so sweet. He just felt, he just felt, oh, he did.
0:58:16 – Speaker 1
Oh, oh, my god, he’s so sweet, he’s OK. Ok good, ok no crying oh OK.
0:58:22 – Speaker 3
So yeah, if you’re listening to this podcast and you are saying, oh wow, that’s me, that’s me too, this is my partner, this is the way they act, this is my parents, and I recognize these behavior patterns, Obviously, the first step is awareness of what is going on. The second step is is it safe for you to leave? And only you know if it is safe for you to leave. You only know, can do that, but reach out. There are so many services out there, whether it’s through the domestic violence hotline or through your friends. Talk about it. You know, for a long time I didn’t talk about all of this stuff because it’s shameful, it’s embarrassing and you know, even to my best friend, I didn’t tell her all the details because of the same thing, Like I don’t want to be seen. I already failed in one marriage. I failed in another marriage and you just feel like this absolutely big, freaking failure when you know you’re a very successful person but you just can’t figure out relationships. Yeah, and you know, when I started opening up and telling my friends and my family, everyone was just concerned for my safety and just wanted me to. You know, they were all 100%, 1000%, supportive. What can we do to get you out of there, Stephanie? What do you need? That’s just. You know it was the opposite of what our mind tells us, that, oh, everyone’s going to. What are people going to think? You know we have to put all that criticism aside. Who cares? Let’s focus on you. Focusing on you and your health and your safety is more important than outside criticism. So really focus on yourself.
And then one of the things that you really have to do with these personality types as well is that you just have to go completely no contact. You just have to. You have to shut them off of everything. You have to put it all just to lock them on everything, because otherwise they will love, glom you back and you just can’t do that.
You know my first ex-husband. He called me six years later and called me up as he’s still married to the woman he left with and came and was like apologize. It was everything I wanted to hear six years ago. But you know they like to keep all their sources of supply on hand, so you never know when they’ll come back. Try to come back into your life. So you have to go 100% no contact. If you have children, that’s obviously a little bit more challenging, but there are parenting apps and stuff. That’s a whole different episode, yeah, and then learn a little bit about the disorder, but then put it aside. You have to focus on you and your healing and for me, it was EFT and numerology taming to my life at the times that I knew a little bit and I the perfect third-party, Third-party.
1:01:23 – Speaker 1
I said that Look at her. She just beamed right off.
1:01:25 – Speaker 3
Look at her, she’s so happy Because I, like you, were saying, erin, it’s like for so long, it’s like, ok, well, what is wrong with me and who am I? And so I liked EFT and numerology because it helped me dig deeper into my personality, into who I am, and really rediscovering myself again. And so I found EFT’s emotional freedom techniques is just a healing modality that helps to rewire the learning. And then numerology is just the energy, the energy that is innate within us. And so I did pull up your guys’ cards since you both gave me your dates.
1:02:21 – Speaker 1
Here you go, hip twin blue, twin blue. Here you go, twin flames, yep, oh, I love it, the gold scapegoat, I love it.
1:02:28 – Speaker 3
Well, should we do Rebecca’s first.
1:02:31 – Speaker 1
Absolutely Yep. Start with that energy.
1:02:33 – Speaker 3
Yes, so this is actually a cardology and so, erin, I mean Rebecca in cardology, so in a 52-stack at cards. Playing cards were energy cards back in the day. Before they became the playing cards, they were like the original tarot cards. 52 days represents 52 weeks a year and all the cycles and all those guns. So, rebecca, you are a four of hearts and actually this is the marriage and family card.
1:03:11 – Speaker 2
Marriage and family card. What does that mean?
1:03:14 – Speaker 3
Marriage and family card.
1:03:15 – Speaker 2
Oh marriage and family.
1:03:16 – Speaker 1
Of course it is. Of course it is.
1:03:19 – Speaker 3
OK, so I will read some things and you can tell me if it resonates with you. Here we go. So the four of hearts, strap it in.
1:03:25 – Speaker 1
Folks, strap it in.
1:03:26 – Speaker 3
Strap this in relationships. Oh, stability and foundation. So the four is all about stability and foundation.
1:03:34 – Speaker 2
That’s me People all day long.
1:03:35 – Speaker 3
Life path number four as well, rebecca, I am a life path number four, so I think that’s great. We are all about stability, foundation, leadership, taking charge in marriage and in families. We want stability and we want relationships. So the four of hearts seeks this relationship, stability, good foundation. They seek it with either their intimate partner or their close friendship. These people have high ideas about love and family. These people have wonderful lives of fulfillment and family and other love areas. They hear the inner call to help others and lay aside some of their personal considerations If they use social media. We were doing real good.
1:04:26 – Speaker 2
We were doing real good Until the partner actually gave a shit about anyone else.
1:04:30 – Speaker 1
Keep on.
1:04:32 – Speaker 3
OK, many four of hearts are healers and protectors. Others come to them for love and support in times of need. So the satisfaction comes in giving of themselves and caring for others. You want stability all day.
1:04:50 – Speaker 1
Does this sound?
1:04:51 – Speaker 3
like you.
1:04:52 – Speaker 1
Yes, so the stability piece and the all-in with my family and my marriage, 100% and the desire for close intimacy and focusing more on your small little group of people that you want to invest in, as opposed to pushing that out to a bunch of different people.
Yes, you are also, although you don’t want to admit it, the person that people will come to if they want to have support, guidance, love and connectedness. You care very deeply. I know Don’t want to give any secrets away here, right, but I swear to God, if something’s going on for me and I’m not in a good place, you are the fixer. Remember when I was in the Aldi’s parking lot and you were like it’s not a problem. I called your husband. I told him you’re coming over, this is what we’re doing. You go get me some coffee, because I need some by the way, since you’re there, right.
You’re there. You knew this, you knew this, you knew this. But what did you do? You took care of me the whole rest of the day. I got this, I made you some food. I did this. You are very much the caretaker, all-in person. You don’t love when people know that about you, because you’re not giving that away to just anyone. You’re very protective of it.
You want it, the want for stability and intimacy and connectedness, and even your comments about when you were doing hypnotherapy and your image of what you wanted around you and that family is so important to you.
1:06:23 – Speaker 2
Very much At your core. Yes, yes, that’s very yes, so that piece feels very right on target.
1:06:31 – Speaker 3
Yep, so I also have the four apart has a strong psychic side. I mean, if developed can bring more success in the world, they all use it in their work, whether they are aware of it or not. They are usually most successful developing one thing and sticking with it. Many four parts are destined to become important leaders in our chosen field, and the part of the path to the high success causes them to face issues, maybe around money and power. But finding their own power while maintaining their foundation of love and support is an important step in this process.
1:07:12 – Speaker 2
It’s really interesting because, as I go through this career change, what have I said to you this whole time?
1:07:17 – Speaker 1
I’m like because I matter how much money I make, I just want to be happy.
1:07:21 – Speaker 2
I don’t want to be happy and my number one priority is being with my children and my husband and I will not compromise that. I will not Period.
1:07:31 – Speaker 1
No, Even against me, trying many times to be like did you see the salary there? And you’re like I don’t care.
1:07:37 – Speaker 4
I don’t care about it Right Down to hours a week.
1:07:40 – Speaker 2
You want me to work 40 hours a week Right down to when you’re like hey, you want to go to dinner on Friday? I’m like, yeah, as long as we’re home by eight, because I got to go to soccer. Yeah.
1:07:48 – Speaker 1
And the other day I went out with Nina and you’re like can I go? And I’m like no, you may not, because what we’re not going to hear the whole time is I got to be home in 16 minutes because I’ve got to go to soccer. No one cares, we’re going to be out all day, right?
1:07:59 – Speaker 3
So yeah, well, you are an ideal parent, oh well, thank you. Oh.
1:08:04 – Speaker 1
God Well, thank you.
1:08:07 – Speaker 3
Because of the loving care they have received from you.
1:08:10 – Speaker 2
Yeah, Did you hear that?
1:08:12 – Speaker 1
No, I didn’t. I totally tuned that out. I totally tuned that out. Where my kid comes up to me today while she’s at my house and says, Mom, could you sign me into Canva? I would really like to start to create some things. And I said, oh, I’m not really sure how to do this, but I’ll do it later. And he goes you’ll do it later. And Rebecca said, yeah, go find something else to do. I’m like, yeah, Did you have to take that tone?
1:08:39 – Speaker 2
Because he was still pushing the envelope Because he was still standing there. He’s got a cure, haven’t forbid, he needs to take a minute. He’s got a cure, you don’t know. No, yep, mom said busy, but yeah, go find something else to do. Very loving.
1:08:50 – Speaker 1
Very supportive, Raising them on love everybody.
1:08:57 – Speaker 3
There you go. So you are the love card, and it is also in that astrological sign it is cancer. Oh, good. Oh good, that is you, Rebecca.
1:09:08 – Speaker 1
And Erin Bring it on, here we go.
1:09:12 – Speaker 3
Is the artist card. Wow so you are a Christa.
1:09:18 – Speaker 2
Don’t think you are Spade. What is it?
1:09:20 – Speaker 3
Three of Spades Three of Spades. Three of.
Spades, three of Spades. So the three of Spades have the opportunity for great success in their work if they are willing to work for it. They have a heavier load than most indicated by their position in the Saturn line, but if they work hard, they will receive the blessings. Let’s see. This says the three of Spades can represent indecision about worker health, and they should watch their health carefully. The more they worry about their health, it could get worse. So you have to watch your thoughts. Mental health, where strong work and career drives often interfere with their attention to their bodies and emotion. So I am just reading this With such a strong creative urge, they can also spread themselves too thin and get stressed out. So you really have to take care of your health. I don’t know, does this?
1:10:34 – Speaker 1
resonate at all. I’m looking at her because she’s what’s the last thing. We took a shot.
1:10:39 – Speaker 3
I’m going to do watercolors. If they just get clear about what is most important to them in life, everything they need and what will come to them.
1:10:54 – Speaker 2
How many times do you need to hear this message. How many times.
1:11:00 – Speaker 1
You know what my medium is Watercolors. I’m going to do watercolors Acrylic paint, no pottery.
1:11:10 – Speaker 2
It’s not literal or supplies you asshole. I cannot I cannot.
1:11:17 – Speaker 1
Oh, my God, I like to color Is that what it is.
1:11:21 – Speaker 2
She’s so goddamn literal. I can’t, I can’t. Okay, keep going.
1:11:25 – Speaker 1
This is great. Your medium is presentations.
1:11:28 – Speaker 2
Okay, oh, there you go, chuck.
1:11:32 – Speaker 3
Well, this says you are well suited for having multiple occupations. Just be careful you don’t do too much.
1:11:41 – Speaker 2
We’re not going to be the provost of the school or the president.
1:11:45 – Speaker 1
We’re going to research Keep going.
1:11:51 – Speaker 2
This is the 15th sign of the same message she’s gotten for the past 23 episodes but let’s just keep reinforcing it Okay.
1:12:00 – Speaker 3
Well, let’s see. Only the path of highest integrity and the willingness to put forth an honest work effort will bring you the success you want. Did you hear that?
1:12:12 – Speaker 2
I heard it.
1:12:13 – Speaker 3
I heard it loud and clear, the most successful artists in the world. So the three of spades is also a highly creative and romantic person and needs a personal partner with whom they share these interests. There are verbs of love based upon interferes of abandonment or rejection that must be dealt with, but overall they have good marriage potential.
1:12:36 – Speaker 1
I got good potential. You can go over here.
1:12:40 – Speaker 3
You need an outlet for your creativity. They will often attract a person who is a critical answer, one with a pessimistic attitude. It’s you, I don’t know. Is that true? Yeah, that’s.
1:12:56 – Speaker 1
Rebecca, she’s a real downer. She’s a mess. I’m like I have a great idea. You’re like this is stupid. We’re not doing that.
1:13:08 – Speaker 3
Yep, love can be a very spiritual thing for you, and they often have lofty goals for marriage. But the same idealism tends to blind them in the negative qualities of those they attract in love and they end up with those who don’t really match up to their dreams. But all of that can be changed 23 episodes summed up into one statement.
1:13:34 – Speaker 2
Colored pencils, I mean thicker body art. Idiot, she’s such an idiot. Do you have any questions?
1:13:54 – Speaker 1
No, I have a lot of questions I have a lot of affirmations.
1:14:00 – Speaker 2
You feel good about it what she just said to you.
1:14:03 – Speaker 1
What she said to you.
1:14:04 – Speaker 2
Yeah, I feel great, yeah good, she felt great about what?
1:14:06 – Speaker 1
she said to you yeah, do you no?
1:14:06 – Speaker 2
I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know. She said to you yeah, do you no? I have to process that after this.
1:14:13 – Speaker 1
I’m picking one more. Then we’re done. I’m picking one more.
1:14:17 – Speaker 2
No, what we need to pick is this one Wait, because this is it. This is for you. Oh, it’s the walrus Fetty.
1:14:29 – Speaker 1
Whatever, Clown Read it.
1:14:31 – Speaker 2
It’s the temperance.
1:14:32 – Speaker 1
Take us home. Take us home, rebecca, and then you’ll read yours.
1:14:35 – Speaker 2
Yeah, I’m going to pee my pants.
1:14:39 – Speaker 1
I know that nothing can get in the way of what is meant for me. I am on the right path.
1:14:45 – Speaker 2
Temperance. The feeling of this card can be likened to the elusive flow state, where great strides are achieved with joy rather than sweat. Events unfold harmoniously and inspiration pops up unexpectedly with a box full of expensive-looking cupcakes. The key is to remain balanced and tempered so you can channel all of this next level energy and put it into practice. Temperance frowns on extremes, so indulge those moderation vibes and enjoy the hopefully more than moderate success in ensues.
1:15:13 – Speaker 1
I’m going to be a baker. Oh my God, charcoal pencils, mm-hmm. Stephanie, if people would like to get ahold of you or would like to touch base with you to learn more, how can they reach you so you can?
1:15:25 – Speaker 3
email me at StephanieannSpeaks at gmailcom and I’m also on Facebook and LinkedIn and I can share those links with you.
1:15:35 – Speaker 1
Yes, please do. Thank you for being with us today. This was a great episode. I hope it helps a lot of people. Please join our Facebook group If you have not already. Please join us live on December 29th and join into this conversation and let us know your thoughts, your feelings and why Rebecca is a four of hearts.
1:16:01 – Speaker 2
I loved that Me too. Isn’t empathy amazing? Well, we’re amazing. I don’t know about all this empathy stuff, that’s fine, I accept you wherever you are.
1:16:13 – Speaker 1
Oh God, I love you. I love you too, and if you love us, please like and subscribe to More Love the power of empathy podcast, wherever you get your podcast. See you next time.

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